Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

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MrTastix wrote:

I'll be honest, the possible skill combinations, whilst awesome, is also extremely overwhelming.

I understand the more "hardcore" gamers might like this but realise that most games, even 10+ years ago, didn't go into the depth that Path of Exile has, and the only other game I know that did was FF10 (which is probably where they're getting some inspiration from -- it looks incredibly similar).

I love the concept of these kind of customisability, especially as an old-school classic gamer where I'd take literally days just to come up with the perfect character, but those times are long gone and the world's moved on with them.

I'm not saying we should abandon all hope, just that you should expect a bit of confusion from newcomers. The skill tree interface alone is the most intimidating interface I've ever seen, bar the FF10 version (they're about the same). The average gamer today is going to be highly confused and possibly even give up before they've even begun.

This might sound absolutely wonderful to the "hardcore" community but that's a very passive-aggressive stance to take. People should welcome the idea of larger and more in-depth communities, not shun them away with intimidation and elitism.

From a marketing standpoint - which is the main thing Grinding Gear Games should care about (making the game "fun" is secondary to making money, since you can't do the former without the latter) - it may bite you in the ass, however.

This really is the age of instant gratification and, whilst I don't like it, that's the way it is. I'm not saying the game has to be changed, just altered in a manner to make it a bit more user-friendly. In-depth tutorials and perhaps some filters would be a great start to decreasing the gap between those "hardcore" gamers and the newcomers who will eventually rush in.

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meggiroth wrote:

So basicaly your so insecure with the choice of your game that you feel the need to "smoothly" bash D3.
D3 will always be better because that scale of production values actualy does make the difference between a niche game like PoE for those oldschool d1-d2 fans and D3 which although may have lost like 60-70% of what made it a diablo game will still be the best dungeon crawler experience when its out. Yes i played the d3 beta aswell, and I understood that its a totaly different game and a good one without crying rivers over the imense change from d2. Stop trying to make PoE what its not ( a D3 killer)

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kodr wrote:

@meggiroth: Well, he didn't say that's why other people bash D3.
I think they just like to be hipsters.

And I agree with him, this open beta will be a good indicator.

Not sure if people will have enough time to have a complete impression of the game, because it took quite some time for me.

I really enjoyed playing the game at first, and people bashing D3 killed it for me basically. I already thought PoE had some flaws but could be improved (and there's still time), but people here like to follow blindly GGG without giving much thinking about the game.

Better bash D3 than improving PoE, right?! :)

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kodr wrote:

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goldenapple100 wrote:

Looking at the beta videos of PoE, however, I was instantly reminded of D1 - that dark, eerie feeling that made your skin crawl. I'm really surprised how well-crafted the game is, especially the graphics.

I guess everyone agree with this.
PoE looks really good and is dark, unlike D3.

But I'm more interested in the gameplay, and people, who think D3 isn't deep, are seriously missing something and should open their eyes.
(not really talking about you here, goldenapple100, but I quoted your post because that's the most positive thing that come back everytime for PoE, no one talks about skills and gameplay)

PoE was fun during the first difficulty level (except the mandatory screw-your-first-passive-tree because you don't know the game and it's mandatory to allocate points). But after this first difficulty level, the game felt short.
Uninteresting skills, poor loot, basic enemy behaviors...
I rushed to Chaos to see if it was different, and it wasn't... I didn't even pay attention to the loot during my last 5 levels, and I was level 53 against level 55 mobs. It was just boring to look at all this crap on the ground, and for nothing really...

The game looks good, but it's the gameplay which keeps the players.

LoL looks like shit, but 11 millions of players play the game because it's fun (compare that to the better looking game HoN).

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

GREAT contribution. But on the point of the balance between 'hardcore' and 'accessible,' allow me to tell you a little story, if I may...

A long time ago (I think it was 2006), I had to interview a book editor, mostly ascertaining her job, learning the ins and outs -- basically, we just had a chat. After we'd gotten past my scripted queries, I was comfortable to ask her more informal, personal questions about the business. This was slightly before the Twilight phenomenon took off, so I framed the question a little differently than I would today, but what I asked was, 'how do you define a successful book?' She was too smart to simply say 'ones that make lots of money.' Her answer (I have it written down, of course, but I can paraphrase it at any time) really reminded me why people create art, whatever the medium:

'The idea of success depends on the book, of course. If we think it's going to be a big seller, then naturally that's what want. But then there are all the other books, the literary novels that might not sell anywhere near as much as a best-seller but are in our eyes important works that should be published, that we'd be proud to publish. They might only sell five or ten thousand copies, but we sell less...challenging books across the board to cover the cost of supporting writers who might not write to such a large audience.'

THAT was a profound thing to hear! Because I do like some books that really aren't that popular, but deserve to be read. Books that deserve to exist and which, as a publisher, are a delight and privilege to support. Now, these books ARE still read, but generally they're not for newbies to serious reading. Maybe a serious reader might recommend it to someone they think will enjoy it. Maybe Oprah jumped on it (...sigh). Point is, not all books are primarily for newcomers. Not all TV shows are either. And most art really isn't. This isn't to say that newcomers can't appreciate them, or perhaps more appropriate learn *how* to appreciate them.

Why should games be any different? We have a mass of accessible games that present tutorials, popup tool tips, quick time events, user-friendly stuff. It's virtually the modus operandi of the AAA title. And I think that's just the way it should be -- lowest common denominator and all that. But indeed, if the lady editor was anything close to right, some games deserve to be made, to be supported, even fully knowing those games won't be best-sellers, won't fly off the shelves. They still deserve to be made because they're *good*. And in the case of PoE, I'm afraid part of what makes it that is the initially daunting user interface. And those who truly appreciate that (newcomer or vet, I've seen delight in the proverbial eyes of both upon beholding PoE) will also understand that if they ever want something simpler, something a little less uncompromising, there are any number of games out there that offer that too.

Where the analogy with publication falls down is, of course, the fact that PoE is not being published by the same financial juggernaut as other, more popular games. And that's where GGG is banking on those who enjoy its game to realise this and pay precisely what they think the game is worth. I think it logical to conceive that since this *is* a niche game, then a fair majority of those who find it appealing will be the types to support that niche. They will know what they like and like what they see. It's precisely the same strategy as what a lot of indie bands do: put their material up for free and basically say 'pay what you think this is worth,' and if you pay a bit extra (the album itself is free), you might get a bonus track or other goodies.

I find this one of the more positive results of an Internet that made data as free as one's morals would allow.

So for the newcomers (and I've seen this happen too, already, often in fact), those who aren't so new, hoping to gather more to their not-so-swelling ranks, offer advice, answer questions and provide the helping hand, just as an experienced reader will do if someone expresses interest in their types of books.

I'm being extremely optimistic and idealistic, of course. PoE will be free, so it's entirely possible a bunch of belligerent ingrates will flood in...but I'd like to believe they already have their haunts, their favourite bridges under which to brawl. This weekend will be a good indicator of just how much a troll will bother with a game where people are, by and large, there to play, not to sit and chat. I've only seen a few real trolls in PoE and I have no trouble ignoring them. That's actually against my nature -- I like a good verbal punch-up, but in its place. And I think the PoE chat isn't such a place.


(Of course, as a game gets older, more and more people sit and chat, but that's another issue, methinks.)

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

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meggiroth wrote:

So basicaly your so insecure with the choice of your game that you feel the need to "smoothly" bash D3.
D3 will always be better because that scale of production values actualy does make the difference between a niche game like PoE for those oldschool d1-d2 fans and D3 which although may have lost like 60-70% of what made it a diablo game will still be the best dungeon crawler experience when its out. Yes i played the d3 beta aswell, and I understood that its a totaly different game and a good one without crying rivers over the imense change from d2. Stop trying to make PoE what its not ( a D3 killer)

I think you have something better to do than try to take part in this conversation. I never said PoE is a D3 killer, nor did I say which game I thought was 'better'. You clearly are not equipped to discuss this issue at the level of analysis demanded by the current point of the dialogue. Sorry. This just isn't the thread for you.

Enjoy D3, it's an amazing game that will make a lot of people happy. Just not me. I articulated that to start a meaningful, many-sided dialogue about it, and that's precisely what happened. If you can't handle that, I...really can't help you. That's your insecurity, not mine.

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Tagek wrote:

About the book thing. Yeah, perhaps some books are good to publish regardless of sales. But the same thing cannot be done for a game. Why? A book is written in about 1 year (or less) by 1 person. It basically costs no money whatsoever besides the food the person eats etc, and the money used for publishing a book practically always gets made up by sales if the book is at least decent.

A game, however, generally takes 2-3, or even more, years to make by anywhere from 10 to 200 people, and costs a very very large amount of money to create. So, if newcomers don't really appreciate them enough, then you suffer enourmous amounts of time and money loss.
Something I think GGG, as a pretty small developer, really can't afford.