Fuck the lab

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

there is nothing contradictory. it IS easy and yet some find it challenging enough that they prefer to whine to no end and have it removed instead of getting better and realising that it was them that made them fail at the lab

and to make it look better - they (some, not all) cover it up with 'it is a bad design blahblah blah' and join the crusade people who actually have no problems difficulty wise but simply do not like the content for what it is

these are two separate groups. i respect the 'design one' (altho - they did EVERYTHING they could to make their agenda stink with bad behaviour, insults etc childish nonsense) but the group that cannot do it and spread bs lies about 'you need a very special build to do traps' is rather laughable (and much much larger)

You're constructing more stuff out of thin air here.

The one who has the best sense about reasons for why people dislike lab is likely to be Turtledove, at this point, because he's been counting those who have negative things to say about lab for a while. I doubt that he would agree with your assessment about how many want lab removed.

Also, just because somebody makes the kind of factually incorrect statement that you cite above doesn't mean they're saying "I want ascendancy for free" or "remove lab". You're re-interpreting their words in a way that is very likely to be incorrect. It's much more likely that they perceive an element of unfairness in how challenging the lab is for different character types and they're not sure how to go through the lab with some character types.

This is a much "closer to literal" translation than your re-interpretation of such words as "wanting to remove lab" or "wanting something for free."

My guess is that sidtherat rarely reads what other people say in these lab threads because he so rarely is correct in conveying what other people have said. Based on his responses in other none labyrinth threads, he seems like a relatively good helpful fellow. But he has little to no real understanding that people that post here about disliking lab generally think that it is not fun, unfair, unlike the rest of PoE game play.

"

sidtherat wrote:

there is nothing contradictory. it IS easy and yet some find it challenging enough that they prefer to whine to no end and have it removed instead of getting better and realising that it was them that made them fail at the lab

and to make it look better - they (some, not all) cover it up with 'it is a bad design blahblah blah' and join the crusade people who actually have no problems difficulty wise but simply do not like the content for what it is

these are two separate groups. i respect the 'design one' (altho - they did EVERYTHING they could to make their agenda stink with bad behaviour, insults etc childish nonsense) but the group that cannot do it and spread bs lies about 'you need a very special build to do traps' is rather laughable (and much much larger)

Neah, there are a few of us who simply find "Labyrinth" boring, and a "failed" implementation regarding traps and their mechanics...

It is very underwhelmingly designed. That is a sad fact, unfortunately.

On average, if you want to not spend very "copious" amounts of time in a "Labyrinth" run, you are actually forced to maximize regen/recovery of HP pool and movement speed - why does it feel so great to go zoom-zoom like the god Mercury and trivialize most of the trap gauntlets? I had the impression those are supposed to tone down the "speed meta", but GGG clearly showed us we were wrong - and call that whatever you want, it still leads to "diversity in PoE is an illusion, Exile".

If GGG would increase the difficulty of the monsters while stopping the traps, having a Darkshrine/master switch guarded by a difficult and time consuming fight in an additional zone, heck, even requiring us to activate a further Darkshrine for stopping the traps in the last Izaro fight, and the "Uber Labyrinth" monster level would be 80 instead of 75, they would have a perfectly tuned area to encourage alternate leveling versus maps (as we all know that GGG could easily "tune" the rewards for a complete "Labyrinth" run).

If they would just concede to 1 additional try per each part before Aspirant Trial (with a waypoint there or after the Izaro fight), as PoE still is a mandatory ALWAYS ONLINE experience, "Uber Labyrinth" would become a more interesting experience (although they would need to also make the Ascendacy points run RNG regarding layout, to better accustom players to THINK, FIGHT and finally obtain their REWARD - the "Labyrinth" system would one of the best additions of PoE)...

Instead GGG went out their way to "improve" said content for Normal/Cruel versions by "streamlining" the experience via shortening its length => wrong way to address concerns and provide solutions...

So please @sidtherat, we both know "Labyrinth" could be so much more, and GGG doesn't need to be excused for their constant lack of vision regarding "incomplete" content...

Please stop with this 'put difficult mobs in the lab' fiasco

With current players damage there are NO diffixult mobs in the game. Adding something that does not exist changes nothing. Game got dumbed down to ridiculous extreme where no threat except some bosses exist. And you skip them.

Absurd dps makes that possible. And traps are the only thing you cannot trivialize with dps. This is how the game looks like now: racing simulator with stock market simulator. Mobs are xp globes you pick withou any brain cell used

Lab fits perfectly with old POE. With current one? It frustrated clear speed junkies because the only thing they know (how to skillfully apply tornado shot to 3 screens around) fails there.

It also punishes bad players pretty hard for sloppiness and 'i want it all for free now' attitude. It has to hurt.


Best lab in the eyes of this group : looong narrow straight corridor filled with 'diffixult monsters' (that die so quickly there is no point at all) with 'you are the greatest' button at the end. That would fit current game wouldnt it?

Btw i can complete uber lab with ANY character. Is it harder for some builds? It is. But it is NOT preventing anyone from completing it. It is PLAYERS skill that matters with traps. Sloppy players will remain sloppy no matter what. You can do uber lab traps with no items no defences. It is up to players to get bwtter and stop whining about difficulty and unfairnes

"

sidtherat wrote:

Please stop with this 'put difficult mobs in the lab' fiasco

With current players damage there are NO diffixult mobs in the game. Adding something that does not exist changes nothing. Game got dumbed down to ridiculous extreme where no threat except some bosses exist. And you skip them.

Absurd dps makes that possible. And traps are the only thing you cannot trivialize with dps. This is how the game looks like now: racing simulator with stock market simulator. Mobs are xp globes you pick withou any brain cell used

Lab fits perfectly with old POE. With current one? It frustrated clear speed junkies because the only thing they know (how to skillfully apply tornado shot to 3 screens around) fails there.

It also punishes bad players pretty hard for sloppiness and 'i want it all for free now' attitude. It has to hurt.


Best lab in the eyes of this group : looong narrow straight corridor filled with 'diffixult monsters' (that die so quickly there is no point at all) with 'you are the greatest' button at the end. That would fit current game wouldnt it?

Btw i can complete uber lab with ANY character. Is it harder for some builds? It is. But it is NOT preventing anyone from completing it. It is PLAYERS skill that matters with traps. Sloppy players will remain sloppy no matter what. You can do uber lab traps with no items no defences. It is up to players to get bwtter and stop whining about difficulty and unfairnes

Riiight, as having foes that could actually pose a threat would be a "bad thing"...

When I thought about some increased difficulty regarding monsters, I simply wanted to say they need to be "noticeable".

We both know that not everybuild is such a "DPS instant one shot" versus all content, and having a moderate % increase to maximum HP of monsters is only meant to slow down an otherwise pretty similar to map "pew-pew" experience.

Yes, yes, things got out of control due to the obscene damage that GGG encouraged players to use, but those simple steps, along with toned down absurd damage scenarios could still bring back some of the great aspects that PoE lost long ago.

I don't mind having difficult content in the game, but it needs to be "fun" and rewarding, and actually make players satisfied that they accomplished it.

"Labyrinth" never did that for me.

And I could also finish a "Labyrinth" run with underleved characters, skills or subpar items, as I can always compensate via skillplay.

I always said traps should be "fun" and if not, they shouldn't be cheesed via infinite flask charges and/or maximised movement speed. They are just boring and tedious most of the time. And if traps are the most "difficult enemy", everyone, starting with GGG, should acknowledge that PoE has bigger problems that need to be addressed "yesterday"...

And PoE needs "moar" difficulty back, as the current level of "clicker" is close to rock bottom...

Honestly I won't make a lab hard build. It's not worth the effort. My goal with the Lab is to ignore it run thru the traps, fight the boss and get the fuck out and pretend it never happened.

I have ran it 22ish times this season on 6 chars. I hated every one. I started playing a skeleton mage build (for science!) and ran it twice last night (at 54). Just because it's easy (first 2 times are lol) doesn't mean its fun, its not.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Please stop with this 'put difficult mobs in the lab' fiasco

With current players damage there are NO diffixult mobs in the game. Adding something that does not exist changes nothing. Game got dumbed down to ridiculous extreme where no threat except some bosses exist. And you skip them.

Absurd dps makes that possible. And traps are the only thing you cannot trivialize with dps. This is how the game looks like now: racing simulator with stock market simulator. Mobs are xp globes you pick withou any brain cell used

Lab fits perfectly with old POE. With current one? It frustrated clear speed junkies because the only thing they know (how to skillfully apply tornado shot to 3 screens around) fails there.

It also punishes bad players pretty hard for sloppiness and 'i want it all for free now' attitude. It has to hurt.


Best lab in the eyes of this group : looong narrow straight corridor filled with 'diffixult monsters' (that die so quickly there is no point at all) with 'you are the greatest' button at the end. That would fit current game wouldnt it?

Btw i can complete uber lab with ANY character. Is it harder for some builds? It is. But it is NOT preventing anyone from completing it. It is PLAYERS skill that matters with traps. Sloppy players will remain sloppy no matter what. You can do uber lab traps with no items no defences. It is up to players to get bwtter and stop whining about difficulty and unfairnes

I get a sense that you believe the game is fubar'd and lab brings the game a bit closer to how it should be, in some way, so people shouldn't complain even if they dislike or hate lab. Ergo, in a sense the validity of claims for why lab is un-fun become secondary to the larger purpose lab now plays in bringing POE closer to being the kind of game it should be, given its fubar'd state. Or something like that.

I have to scratch my head in confusion at your model of how people approach games; it blows right past what people say about their own experiences and desires and puts everybody into a handful of pre-defined boxes that you arrived at.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Some might find the lab hard. Some might find it easy. Doesn't really matter.

My hate for the lab doesn't come from the difficulty, but the design. It's boring, tedious and the gameplay itself is unrewarding as hell. What did GGG do to make the lab BETTER? They made "less of it". Shorter. If less equals better, we're arguably talking about a shady piece of content.

Gameplay should be based upon Intrinsic Motivation as well as Extrinsic Motivation. If the lab had around the same rewards per minute as the rest of the game and there was no market for "carries", I doubt many players would run it regularly.

In short: Fun gameplay feels satisfying while doing it. The lab fails in that regard.

this is YOUR opinion.

i happened to level from 91 in 92 (or 90-91 ?) purely in the lab. it was slower than in maps ofc but - there are quite a few mobs in the lab. it cannot rival sextanted maps ofc but it is good enough. the rewards are there and i - personal opinion - found very fun the lookbox hunt and darkshrines hunt while also killing enough monsters on the way to level at a decent pace

my char in question? Ice Crash'er.. so one of the crapiest builds/skills imaginable, no movement speed, just one QS flask, no cheeze at all

the rewards ARE in the lab. it is still one of the best places to make steady money, esp after lab changes that made both 'getting ascendancies' easier and uber lab far, far, far more profitable than before

if you talk about fun - chain-farming the same map over and over and over and over and over again is my definition of anti fun. same opinion about 'play only the content you cannot fail' mentality quite a few players have. fun is in the challenge and the more personal challenge it is - the better. anyone can copy a meta build and chain-farm easy maps. ANYONE. POE is easier than ever. with the only speed bump - the lab. and big part of that auto-run meta got hurt and touchy. it hurts when you face an obstacle you cannot offscreen with tornado shot

market for caries exists for everything - atziri, shaper, even map and quest bosses. in a trading game - you will have 'service' for everything. you can even buy waypoints.



and if you - and others - read what i wrote you would see that i distinct two groups: people that like/dislike the design AND players who whine because they are 'not there yet' and their problem is difficulty (some admit it directly, some create some colorful bs to cover it up).
i respect the opinion (like/dislike) but once it becomes obvious the problem is difficulty - it gets laughable (just like the stories 'you need MoM and this and that and that and then it is easy' - when i read it i KNOW person in question has the 'difficulty' problem first, design second)

"

sidtherat wrote:

the rewards ARE in the lab.

Correction: the rewards are at the end of the lab. Most of them, anyway. Apart from the occasional lucky treasure chest on the way there, there is nothing rewarding about going through the lab proper. It's like running T7 normal maps, but with some badly made movement puzzles thrown in.

That's not to say it can't be worth it. When I'm done typing this, I'm going to burn a few offerings on today's uber lab myself. But that's mostly because I'm SSF and somewhat desperate for stuff. Holding a big bag of rewards hostage to boring, poorly executed gameplay is not my idea of good game design. Running the lab should be rewarding on its own merits, not just because you get paid at the end.

Please don't fuck the labrador.

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Shovelcut wrote:

For one, if you are one of the type of people that sells stuff are you going to pass up the opportunity to make extra chaos when you get the trials in your maps? I doubt it. I don't find that fun so I keep all my offerings.

I assume this is meant as if I find a trial from a map I'll sell the trial to other people, if I understood this right? I did that in past around Prophecy League, but gave up on it at Essence League because I personally don't like the hunt for trials or the Lab. If I find trials at the start of the league and I have spare portals, I let people come and run the trial without the need of paying, or as it's called, tipping, me. If I misunderstood, let me know.

Also, I do skip most of the trials after finding all six, no matter what build I play, even a tanky mofo Juggernaut who I could put middle of the trap and take a break when I go grab a drink or take the trash out, I do not find Lab a fun place. I keep around 2-3 offerings in my tab for the next character (if I'm planning to make one), after having those, skippety skip skip all the trials.

"

Shovelcut wrote:

As for laby carries, not everyone charges for those. I never have and I've given quite a few. And I've seen many people doing the same in global chat. You don't have to be involved in some greedy conspiracy to want to defend something you enjoy. :)

My bad about the part of lab carries, I tried to make a witty remark of something I found funny myself and doing it through text is more difficult. :3

Regarding of the fun and enjoyment, yes, that's the point for a lot of people in this and other threads. These people don't find running the Lab fun, yet it's a gateway for making your character stronger in offensive and defensive ways. Or changing behavior in some aspects regarding the skill interaction if you do or do not have certain Ascendency points which can be crucial to the build they wish to play or try out. Yes, players still try out builds, weird eh?

People, you and me, find different parts of the game enjoyable, for example, I like fighting against bosses even with very rippy map rolls. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but that's what I find fun. For you, it might not be fun and can be seen as waste of time. No, I don't mean this is your opinion, just giving an example friend :3

In any case, forcing people go through the Lab, be it rewarding, boring, fun, difficult (pick the word that fits for yourself here!) etc. can be seen as a choice GGG has made when the Lab was in the process of been designed. However, as can be known, they've CHANGED already the Lab to be shorter for earlier difficulties, and it's seen as a reasonable change.

On my own part, I'm not asking them to remove the Lab, I'm suggesting that having a way of skipping the parts a lot of people find boring, myself included (The running parts), and giving an option to battle against the Izaro for purely Ascendency points is one solution to offer for players. GGG could do this by having an optional entrance to the Labyrinth, one which you could open via using lever which gives a simple pop-up which could read as such;

"You're about to open a portal to fight against Izaro. If you step through this portal, you won't get any loot as drops or treasure keys. You also cannot use the enchantment lable and any prophecies won't activate. Defeating Izaro will only reward you with 2 Ascendency Points. Do you wish to continue?"

The text is very crude, and I leave the choices of making the battle for GGG (No, I have ideas for those too, though that would need to be entirely own thread), be it three separated battles, (Similar to what we have now) or one battle from full health to zero from Izaro's part, does it require extra offerings or one like the Labyrinth run etc. But being this way, players are given the choice to engage the full Labyrinth, with rewards and all, or choose to fight for only the Ascendency Points.

_Skittles_