Fuck the lab

I hate the choice of giving up decent mats for 5 minutes work vs just doing the fucking retarded trial for free loot.

I do the fucking trial since I always need something, making me a bad person I suppose because some developer with a hardon for the lab is keeping those stats I bet to "prove" I like the lab.

Let me reiterate that "Uber Labyrinth" could be the ALTERNATIVE to mapping, it could be a high enough monster level area, but never with the highest level of enemies, and it should allow optimal "farming & chill", as the most "stressing" matter would be to always have "at hand" a few Offerings, presuming you want to go for multiple runs.

I'm mostly playing melee characters, with slow movement speed according to "meta", and Ice Crash is one of those "decent" melee skills - it can be AoE focused and helped by another Ice Crash/Glacial Hammer for bosses, just so you won't swap CE vs IAoE, and still keep the cold pen bonuses and the "Ice theme"...

So my opinion of a time consuming method to make all the traps destructible is "moar shallow" than the current invulnerable implementation just because there are some players which ALWAYS break the "DPS barrier"? And that doesn't highlight any problems with trap design?

Come on @sidtherat, if GGG would have wanted to make the "Labyrinth/Uber Labyrinth" a rite of passage, and a very different area, where PoE got back some difficulty, trap gauntlets could have been a lot better implemented - we both know that we remember my thread regarding all the subpar aspects and a few solution proposals.

"Labyrinth" always felt like ripe with potential, but ultimately failed in reaching even a small part of it.

And please don't be so "shallow" that GGG could "buy you off" with their "moar rewards for lackluster content" tactic.

And at least those "carry services" should follow some "moar" strict rules, and actually require player interaction - like always being in the same arena with the boss, have "Labyrinth" maps be RNG on the Ascendancy points runs, etc. etc. - as those carried players should actually have a chance at improving something regarding their characters, even when paying for such a rendered service...

Ultimately, it's up to GGG to come with different solutions and provide REAL and TANGIBLE improvements that would make their content "fun", and DIFFICULT, in a fair way.

We just might provide at least viable starting ideas around here, as this is the dedicated part of the PoE Forum for "Feedback and Suggestions"...

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I hate the choice of giving up decent mats for 5 minutes work vs just doing the fucking retarded trial for free loot.

I do the fucking trial since I always need something, making me a bad person I suppose because some developer with a hardon for the lab is keeping those stats I bet to "prove" I like the lab.

The context is that speculation on my part is following.

Generally people posting on these PoE forums are the more advanced players. As such a much higher percentage of the people that post here complete 6 or 8 ascendancy points per character. I also assume that GGG is able to tabulate the percent of people that complete what labyrinths per character. Those numbers likely indicate fewer people complete the labyrinths than GGG would like to see. This assumption is based on this GGG thread, Changes to the Labyrinth. Also slightly supporting this assumption is the fact that soon after labyrinth release GGG released some information about number of people playing labyrinth and seemed to indicate that the reports would continue but, they did not.

In conclusion, I agree that the tendency would be for GGG to conclude that most people that complete labyrinth runs do not mind it too much. I will also guess/hope that the reports likely indicate that a lower percentage of people complete 3 or 4 labyrinths per character than GGG would like to see.

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Turtledove wrote:

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

I hate the choice of giving up decent mats for 5 minutes work vs just doing the fucking retarded trial for free loot.

I do the fucking trial since I always need something, making me a bad person I suppose because some developer with a hardon for the lab is keeping those stats I bet to "prove" I like the lab.

The context is that speculation on my part is following.

Generally people posting on these PoE forums are the more advanced players. As such a much higher percentage of the people that post here complete 6 or 8 ascendancy points per character. I also assume that GGG is able to tabulate the percent of people that complete what labyrinths per character. Those numbers likely indicate fewer people complete the labyrinths than GGG would like to see. This assumption is based on this GGG thread, Changes to the Labyrinth. Also slightly supporting this assumption is the fact that soon after labyrinth release GGG released some information about number of people playing labyrinth and seemed to indicate that the reports would continue but, they did not.

In conclusion, I agree that the tendency would be for GGG to conclude that most people that complete labyrinth runs do not mind it too much. I will also guess/hope that the reports likely indicate that a lower percentage of people complete 3 or 4 labyrinths per character than GGG would like to see.

I strongly believe GGG has those numbers, but having the numbers without feedback isn't the same thing. You can have 1 000 players doing part of the content inside a game, do an update, and still have 1 000 players doing the same content. The difference comes from if you like the content, or not. Yes, doing the content might be seen the efficient way for the players doing so, but it doesn't mean it's fun to do.

In many multiplayer games there's daily routines the players follow more or less, be it daily quests for reputation or currency, or trying to grind area/monsters/boss/dungeon/raid/etc. Now some people can and will find those fun, but it doesn't mean everyone does. Having 500, 1 000 or 10 000 people doing them doesn't mean 100% of them like doing it, which is what a lot game devs seem to miss, purposedly or not.

As an example, I can tell you I've played a game where you could run two solo instances per character each day. I ran it with ALL characters ( EIGHT ) I could in reasonable time, and few guild members ran even more than me (Madness! :3 ). Did me or the guild members liked it? No, we did not, but it was the best way to get crucial items to progress forward to EVEN ENTER harder content. Hence, if we had feedback option at the end of each Labyrinth run (Trust me, I DON'T WANT THAT!), you'd see clearer how many people actually enjoy doing it.

Like I brought out at the example of 1000 people doing the same content after an update, as a mean of seeing why there's still that much people doing it, because it's the ONLY WAY to get Ascendency Points.

If you're offered to get X from doing Y, you WILL do the Y, if it's the only possible way to get the X and it's meaningfull to you.

A lot of people who wish changes to the Labyrinth aren't wanting to remove it, and I think the same. We want the changes for the Ascendency Points been hold back at the end of boring walk through the Labyrinth itself which is the part we don't enjoy.

GGG already took a step to right direction for shortening the earlier Labyrinths, but they could still do more. Having more people staying to play in each league is better to them as company and PR for the game itself. And I'm pretty sure the people who enjoy Lab would be pleased to have more people willing to pay for the Lab enchantments.

(Btw Lab runners, I love the work you put into getting those enchantments for all the helmets, thank you!)

_Skittles_

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sidtherat wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

[stuff...]

Gameplay should be based upon Intrinsic Motivation as well as Extrinsic Motivation. If the lab had around the same rewards per minute as the rest of the game and there was no market for "carries", I doubt many players would run it regularly.

In short: Fun gameplay feels satisfying while doing it. The lab fails in that regard.

this is YOUR opinion.

i happened to level from 91 in 92 (or 90-91 ?) purely in the lab. it was slower than in maps ofc but - there are quite a few mobs in the lab. it cannot rival sextanted maps ofc but it is good enough. the rewards are there and i - personal opinion - found very fun the lookbox hunt and darkshrines hunt while also killing enough monsters on the way to level at a decent pace

You have unintentionally strengthened Phrazz's position regarding intrinsic motivation. I assume that what you just described was a process you enjoyed after GGG did the randomized reward overhaul, because prior to that there was virtually NO reward for actually exploring the Labyrinth. You know, engaging it as an actual Labyrinth?

GGG made this change for the right reason: To make the process per se more enjoyable. You know, the actual journey? The reason people play games in the first place? I don't know about you, but I don't play games in order to see the credits screen at the end.

Now, it just so happens that Phrazz does not feel that GGG did enough in that regard, and that's a far more interesting thing to argue about than whether the statement should be disregarded because "Hey man, that's just your opinion."

(Personally, I think that per-play randomization is a prerequisite to completely fixing the Lab, the inevitable shitstorm notwithstanding.)

And incidentally, "That's just your opinion" is rarely a compelling argument, because it is a truism in all discussions of game design. There are ONLY opinions. So it is a red herring and not a genuine rebuttal. A genuine rebuttal would say, "Your opinion is not well supported by your statements, and here is why." Or even just, "Your statements don't support your argument, because..."

The statement "Good game design provides intrinsic reward" is not just a random opinion. It is a tenet that almost all designers will agree with, not least of all because it is common sense, but also because the proof is in the pudding: Gamers continue to play games that are fun. Gamers quit games that are not fun.

The statement "The Lab fails in that regard" is a far more subjective statement, and if your retort was intended only to apply to that part of Phrazz's post, then I apologize.

That said,

"

the rewards ARE in the lab. it is still one of the best places to make steady money, esp after lab changes that made both 'getting ascendancies' easier and uber lab far, far, far more profitable than before

Here you demonstrate that you didn't understand Phrazz's primary point at all, which is probably why you unintentionally supported it instead of arguing against it. Those are all extrinsic motivators.

GGG be like : " You will do you 1-10 acts and Labs on every god damn single character you're leveling , every single new league and YOU WILL ENJOY IT ! "

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skaterboy80 wrote:

GGG be like : " You will do you 1-10 acts and Labs on every god damn single character you're leveling , every single new league and YOU WILL ENJOY IT ! "

What else can they reasonably do? Provide an option to jump straight to maps? Copy Blizzard's business model and start selling instant-lvl100 characters?

No, requiring people to play the game in order to reach the endgame is their only option, as I see it, while simultaneously continuing to tweak and improve each area (including the Lab) to make it more fun.

Now, their priorities are definitely not the same as mine (I think they need to remove the most obvious QA farts FIRST, and remove all noobtraps from the game SECOND, and add new material and polish THIRD), but I can't accuse them of lack of effort at least.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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skaterboy80 wrote:

GGG be like : " You will do you 1-10 acts and Labs on every god damn single character you're leveling , every single new league and YOU WILL ENJOY IT ! "

What else can they reasonably do? Provide an option to jump straight to maps? Copy Blizzard's business model and start selling instant-lvl100 characters?

No, requiring people to play the game in order to reach the endgame is their only option, as I see it, while simultaneously continuing to tweak and improve each area (including the Lab) to make it more fun.

Now, their priorities are definitely not the same as mine (I think they need to remove the most obvious QA farts FIRST, and remove all noobtraps from the game SECOND, and add new material and polish THIRD), but I can't accuse them of lack of effort at least.

People ask for endless ledge or something like this to level new characters forever , GGG can

do it but they refuse to . No wonder leagues are dead 1 month in .

That's more than reasonable to implement , they can enable something like this the next league

if they want to .

Honestly, I think implementing something like that would backfire on them.

I predict that people would burn out even faster from the tedium of it, and would then have bad things to say about the game and/or GGG to others.

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sidtherat wrote:

i happened to level from 91 in 92 (or 90-91 ?) purely in the lab.
[...]
the rewards ARE in the lab. it is still one of the best places to make steady money, esp after lab changes that made both 'getting ascendancies' easier and uber lab far, far, far more profitable than before

You are only confirming my point.
Lab has its rewards, so it does not need ascendancy points
For some people lab is fun. So why shove it into throats of people who does not find it fun?

BTW I am really curious what shitstorm and whining would be from all lab farmers/carriers if lab was randomized for instance, not per day