Fuck the lab

"

If traps are an issue for you, you should probably stop running through them haphazardly.

Wrong answer,
Make a high Regen-MOM build or stupid High ES with fast ES regen.

I could safely run thru most traps with limited damage.

Still can't be stupid on the boss fights but getting to them is zzzzzz.

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

"

If traps are an issue for you, you should probably stop running through them haphazardly.

Wrong answer,
Make a high Regen-MOM build or stupid High ES with fast ES regen.

I could safely run thru most traps with limited damage.

Still can't be stupid on the boss fights but getting to them is zzzzzz.

Yeah, but even if your build doesn't utilise those things you still need to run the lab. Playing a completely differing build is no solution at all.

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

"

If traps are an issue for you, you should probably stop running through them haphazardly.

Wrong answer,
Make a high Regen-MOM build or stupid High ES with fast ES regen.

I could safely run thru most traps with limited damage.

Still can't be stupid on the boss fights but getting to them is zzzzzz.

To be fair, with enough repetition you can memorize the patterns and learn how to navigate them without taking damage. Then again, whether people are playing an ARPG for that kind of gameplay is a separate question.

Which reminds me: since Ascendancy, has any official GGG trailer featured any traps at all?

"

suszterpatt wrote:

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

"

If traps are an issue for you, you should probably stop running through them haphazardly.

Wrong answer,
Make a high Regen-MOM build or stupid High ES with fast ES regen.

I could safely run thru most traps with limited damage.

Still can't be stupid on the boss fights but getting to them is zzzzzz.

To be fair, with enough repetition you can memorize the patterns and learn how to navigate them without taking damage. Then again, whether people are playing an ARPG for that kind of gameplay is a separate question.

Which reminds me: since Ascendancy, has any official GGG trailer featured any traps at all?

You don't need high regen/MoM or to memorize the patterns to be perfectly honest. All you have to do is take it slow, don't panic and be aware of your surroundings. Having the right flasks and using them properly is important but not really necessary if you position well. Positioning is key, keep the cursor close to your character to maximize control. With little practice traps will become a complete afterthought and a total non-issue for any build.

If you can fit in one panic healing flask it really helps if you do get caught in a bad situation in the traps. At least that's all I ever bother with to get me through. I'd say I also bring a quicksilver but I always have one on any char anyway. :P

any build can do traps. i play memest of the memest builds and if there is a problem anywhere - it is izaro's phases if i want to get lots of keys. traps? it is a PLAYER SKILL check rather than builds check

sure, some combos make traps easier, but even the hardest of the hardest settups are perfectly doable by a non-triggered, non-panicked, non-drunk player with any build


some people do not like the idea of the lab - i respect that.

but some - and i have my theory: quite a bunch - do not like it because unlike maping where nothing can touch them and they can feel superiour, lab actually shows them their place and you cannot bruteforce traps with 'stupidly high dps and no brain' approach. that contrast of 'im great player, look as these mobs melt before me' and 'i couldnt avoid that one immobile set of spikes 4 times in a row! bad lab, baaad!' must hurt
unability to 'cheat' with logouts hurts just as much imo

as for the 'remove the lab movement' - it is just like ANY cheap political movement with 'we will give you everything you need, for free'. who wouldnt want to be rich without doing a thing? who would say no to 'lets remove this piece of effort you need to make'. it is cheap politics and it always gathers crowds
crowds that do not understand that getting stuff for free does not make anyone rich, ever.

I love when lab advocates easy change between "lab is the only challenging element of PoE" and "lab is easy, git gud" back and forth
Orwell's double-thinking in its purest form

"

Nishrek wrote:

I love when lab advocates easy change between "lab is the only challenging element of PoE" and "lab is easy, git gud" back and forth
Orwell's double-thinking in its purest form

What makes it even harder to watch without wincing, beyond the obvious silliness of those who switch back and forth between "it's easy, it's hard", is to note how some whom are probably actually reasonably intelligent in real life convince themselves that they know better than others what those others are really thinking and feeling, and why.

Armed with the conviction that they know others better than others know themselves, they turn what others say into straw man arguments that are about as real as fiscal sanity in Washington D.C., and then rail against the straw man arguments they just created out of thin air.

there is nothing contradictory. it IS easy and yet some find it challenging enough that they prefer to whine to no end and have it removed instead of getting better and realising that it was them that made them fail at the lab

and to make it look better - they (some, not all) cover it up with 'it is a bad design blahblah blah' and join the crusade people who actually have no problems difficulty wise but simply do not like the content for what it is

these are two separate groups. i respect the 'design one' (altho - they did EVERYTHING they could to make their agenda stink with bad behaviour, insults etc childish nonsense) but the group that cannot do it and spread bs lies about 'you need a very special build to do traps' is rather laughable (and much much larger)

"

sidtherat wrote:

there is nothing contradictory. it IS easy and yet some find it challenging enough that they prefer to whine to no end and have it removed instead of getting better and realising that it was them that made them fail at the lab

and to make it look better - they (some, not all) cover it up with 'it is a bad design blahblah blah' and join the crusade people who actually have no problems difficulty wise but simply do not like the content for what it is

these are two separate groups. i respect the 'design one' (altho - they did EVERYTHING they could to make their agenda stink with bad behaviour, insults etc childish nonsense) but the group that cannot do it and spread bs lies about 'you need a very special build to do traps' is rather laughable (and much much larger)

You're constructing more stuff out of thin air here.

The one who has the best sense about reasons for why people dislike lab is likely to be Turtledove, at this point, because he's been counting those who have negative things to say about lab for a while. I doubt that he would agree with your assessment about how many want lab removed.

Also, just because somebody makes the kind of factually incorrect statement that you cite above doesn't mean they're saying "I want ascendancy for free" or "remove lab". You're re-interpreting their words in a way that is very likely to be incorrect. It's much more likely that they perceive an element of unfairness in how challenging the lab is for different character types and they're not sure how to go through the lab with some character types.

This is a much "closer to literal" translation than your re-interpretation of such words as "wanting to remove lab" or "wanting something for free."

Some might find the lab hard. Some might find it easy. Doesn't really matter.

My hate for the lab doesn't come from the difficulty, but the design. It's boring, tedious and the gameplay itself is unrewarding as hell. What did GGG do to make the lab BETTER? They made "less of it". Shorter. If less equals better, we're arguably talking about a shady piece of content.

Gameplay should be based upon Intrinsic Motivation as well as Extrinsic Motivation. If the lab had around the same rewards per minute as the rest of the game and there was no market for "carries", I doubt many players would run it regularly.

In short: Fun gameplay feels satisfying while doing it. The lab fails in that regard.