Fuck the lab

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sidtherat wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

this is YOUR opinion.

i happened to level from 91 in 92 (or 90-91 ?) purely in the lab. it was slower than in maps ofc but - there are quite a few mobs in the lab. it cannot rival sextanted maps ofc but it is good enough. the rewards are there and i - personal opinion - found very fun the lookbox hunt and darkshrines hunt while also killing enough monsters on the way to level at a decent pace

You have unintentionally strengthened Phrazz's position regarding intrinsic motivation. I assume that what you just described was a process you enjoyed after GGG did the randomized reward overhaul, because prior to that there was virtually NO reward for actually exploring the Labyrinth. You know, engaging it as an actual Labyrinth?

GGG made this change for the right reason: To make the process per se more enjoyable. You know, the actual journey? The reason people play games in the first place? I don't know about you, but I don't play games in order to see the credits screen at the end.
Now, it just so happens that Phrazz does not feel that GGG did enough in that regard, and that's a far more interesting thing to argue about than whether the statement should be disregarded because "Hey man, that's just your opinion."

(Personally, I think that per-play randomization is a prerequisite to completely fixing the Lab, the inevitable shitstorm notwithstanding.)

And incidentally, "That's just your opinion" is rarely a compelling argument, because it is a truism in all discussions of game design. There are ONLY opinions. So it is a red herring and not a genuine rebuttal. A genuine rebuttal would say, "Your opinion is not well supported by your statements, and here is why." Or even just, "Your statements don't support your argument, because..."

The statement "Good game design provides intrinsic reward" is not just a random opinion. It is a tenet that almost all designers will agree with, not least of all because it is common sense, but also because the proof is in the pudding: Gamers continue to play games that are fun. Gamers quit games that are not fun.

The statement "The Lab fails in that regard" is a far more subjective statement, and if your retort was intended only to apply to that part of Phrazz's post, then I apologize.

That said,

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the rewards ARE in the lab. it is still one of the best places to make steady money, esp after lab changes that made both 'getting ascendancies' easier and uber lab far, far, far more profitable than before

Here you demonstrate that you didn't understand Phrazz's primary point at all, which is probably why you unintentionally supported it instead of arguing against it. Those are all extrinsic motivators.

if possible, id like to talk to people i actually replied to. having others paraphrase and (possibly) twist our words - doesnt bring us nowhere. so please, if you want to comment/agree/disagree with what i wrote - refrain from making assumptions and speak only on your own behalf

regarding intristic/externistic motivation - im not familiar with these terms - but i bet lines between are blurry at best.

i - as me, the player - found lab FUN before the changes. it allowed me to challenge myself in a different way than simply speed farming maps without being really challenged ever. i liked the progression each daily session brought: at first i explored the lab, learned the layout, found the patterns and then kept doing it to get nice, smooth runs. with ANY character that i happened to play - this sense of progression was - for me - the most fun part of POE at that time. i did NOT use lab-runners, i didnt even do that for the money (i do not participate in economeh much). i liked the process of 'getting bettr', the personal challenge it brough. because i see little to no challenge in playing meta builds while on a phone and eating. POE was very easy back then, too

so, again, i have no idea about this intr/extr motivation theories - but the big part might be that SOME people like the lab regardless of rewards. it seems that some hate it so much that they think THEIR hatred is the 'default' approach but you have to understand it IS NOT

undeniable fact is - lab is only or one of the very few places in the game when player matters more than his/her character. and players that fail this test are salty and angry (denial of their shortcommings and anger that others have little to no similar problems). thus all the BS about 'you need this and this and this to complete it, my EV/Acro char CANNOT DO IT and dies all the time' yet i do not remember having such issues with my EV/Acro archers or trappers/miners..


note: people play maps because maps drop money. remember how people 'loved' breach? have you seen players using vaal breach for reason other than melting bosses with chain/heralds? no? neither did i. why is that? because vaal breach drops no items and grants no xp. breach was loved because it dropped and still drops EXTREMELY stupid item quantity and xp. it is all reward bribery and players fall for it in drowes



note: that trap layout below. not 100% safe spot but 'pressure plate spikes' and 'totem areas' are your safe spots in this case. and you are right that this is THE most difficult trap gauntlet and i wouldnt mind if ggg actually added a classic safe spot there (and introduce some light - lab is too dark for no reason)

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sidtherat wrote:

i never understood why the personal ascendancy can be done in a group.. sure, the curse-bots and aura-bots would suffer but is that a bad thing? these builds are more of a problem than a generic enrichment of the game

i would not mind 100% random instances, i would not mind that.

but i still think that using any 'difficult monster' is just removing that part of the challenge. there are NO DIFFICULT MONSTERS IN POE right now. anything guarded by 'difficult monster' is effectively free to take. POE got dumbed down to the level i never expect possible and untill the game recovers from this 'free powah to everyone!!!11' anything 'with monsters' is fake difficulty.

offcsreening, no reflect, 1mil dps builds vs mobs that have 50-200k HP.. please. monsters 'guarding' stuff? rather bonus xp globes

again, please mark your opinions as 'imo' - because i see it time and again when personal beliefs are phrased as 'people think'. no, you think that, let others speak for themselves

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but dare I remind you that in every other part of the game, you can supplement your lackluster skillplay by build, items and/or skill choices, while in "Labyrinth" this isn't applied "fairly" versus traps (except for movement speed/skills, all hail "Road Runner pew-pew meta").

no supplement but replace. one-handed half-baked clay brick can plan volatile dead poet's pen build and clear everything with ease. mapping is 99% build, 1% player. and the build can be easily copied. so there is no skill-build involved as well. no skill-play, no skill-build. clicker..

and traps ARE pretty equal to everyone. because - wait for it - you can avoid 99% of them and not get hit once per entire lab run.
sure, chars with phys reduction will fare better but.. who stops people from getting phys reduction? their dps greed maybe? or lazines? 3 end charges and a basalt flask + arctic armour are there for EVERY build (if only temporarily for lab run) - people swap gems before boss fights im sure they can also switch AA and one flask. how much phys reduction is that? 12+20+13?

lab runers that stack mov speed etc are quicker? sure. but have you checked how their /deaths counter looks like and how well they map? it is a single-purpose character that fails at EVERYTHING else. it doesnt make normal, non-speedrunning builds uncappable of completing the lab with ease.

successful people find solutions, not excuses. and while reading about how unfair traps are i see excuses, walls of these