my issue is not the greed. they are a commercial entity and in fact they do what they do to earn money
issue i see is hypocrisy. they advertise 'ethical' etc 'soft, cushy, fluffy' business practices while charging hard cash for stuff that DOES affect the way you play (cosmetics DO NOT, stash tabs DO and by A F.. LOT)
so they get both the 'hearts, hugs and kisses' for being 'ethical' (AKA the underdogs who deserve any help they ask) and hard cash from players who are actually locked out of parts of the game
ethical? lol.
i can accept char slots as 'ethical' but.. stash tabs are not. these are typical p2w aspects
and im fine with that. just stop smearing this 'ethical' lie everywhere, it is 100% pure hypocrisy
Everything they sell is still convenience, not power. Until they start selling actual character power, they can say ethical as much as they want imo.
By that logic, if they were to introduce a loud as fuck klaxon that goes off every 10 seconds while you're in town/HO, but you can get rid of it for a dollar, that would still be ethical. And that wouldn't even impair your ability to trade as much as the lack of premium tabs does.
With your logic you may have the lowest iq here, you are litterly arguing with no arguments.
You cant give an examply so mental that everyone ever tryed the game would quit 10 seconds after killing hillok.
You can play just fine with 4 tabs, it just forces you to vendor the oldest junk wich no one bought ever now and then, when you get sick of that and want to keep playing then you might buy some new tabs, and you may even want to by some more if you feel for playing the next season aswell, not because its rly rly needed but because it makes your game experience better.
With your logic you may have the lowest iq here, you are litterly arguing with no arguments.
You cant give an examply so mental that everyone ever tryed the game would quit 10 seconds after killing hillok.
You can play just fine with 4 tabs, it just forces you to vendor the oldest junk wich no one bought ever now and then, when you get sick of that and want to keep playing then you might buy some new tabs, and you may even want to by some more if you feel for playing the next season aswell, not because its rly rly needed but because it makes your game experience better.
Ad hominems about ones IQ levels aren't arguments (side note: you may want to hold yourself from using those given how well you spell words, uh). You saying that playing with 4 tabs is fine isn't one, neither.
And ironically you just agreed on what we were saying here. GGG is trying to annoy you so that you buy stash tabs. Just like shitty android games with fee-or-wait mechanics. This is not even close to being ethical.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
Last edited by Perq#4049 on Dec 14, 2017, 3:21:25 AM
No where does it state that non supporting players will have access to all the qol features and shiny pixels that others have. If you honestly play a game for the hundreds of hours you are bitching about to collect that amount of stuff and are unwilling to support the development of that game you are a leech. GGG idea and business model is to let people experience the full version of the game to ENTICE them into supporting it. There are MANY MANY ways around having to spend money for the qol improvements to play the game and as far as everyone bitching about stash space DEAL with it or create mule account(s). Ohh it takes you 5 minutes to transfer stuff from player a to player b THAT IS WHY IT IS A QOL improvement and NOT a p2win. Does it slow you down yes! But so does playing on a shitty connection or with a potato for a computer, do you also expect ggg to give unlimited servers, pay for your isp and give you a brand new i7? Some of you bitching about this really do think thats the case. There is no Inherent benefit on the non mtx account versus the maxed mtx account in terms of your individual characters ability to KIll any content in the game. THERE is a HUGE difference in the ability to have 1 character versus 10, But the exact same thing could be accomplished with 10 accounts which is NOT against the tos in any way. Heck they even let you run 2 instances at the same time so you can transfer stuff, You just can't have 1 set of controls controlling both toons.
So in summation: stop being a bunch of self entitled brats who think that the world owes you every and anything you want and look at things from an objective reasonable perspective. You will be a much happier individual in the long run.
I bolded some of the parts.
First of all, as always people go into leech/free-loader/whatever argument. Which is, of course, avoiding what I'm trying to talk about and instead go into ad hominems.
I never said I want to be freeloading, if you think about it most people don't want to.
Heck, I'm quite sure I spent more money on PoE than you did.
Should I call you a greedy person who cannot appreciate a good game? Will it change anything?
Secondly, you claim that GGG is enticing us to support them by giving us a great, FREE TO PLAY game, with no p2win. What you are missing is that I said the same thing: I did support GGG because of that.
I supported them because they weren't tunneling us into buying QoL/convenience/advantage features, but only sold MTX and minor convenience like stash tab space, which could easily be replaced with having another mule account. EASILY.
My problem is that they are starting to add more and more stuff that almost has to be bought to play on a decent level. They are adding shitton of new items you should be picking, or you are missing out.
Some people here are proposing to not pick up some items because they are not worth it, example being essences.
Can't you see this is pretty much equivalent of buying minor crafting items from cash shop in some shitty MMOs?
And I'm going to address the leech thing again. I viewed GGG's model as an idea. An ethical idea they were talking so much. They created a game that allowed everyone to participate and be effective, no matter if they paid or not.
Why do I care so much about it being fair for everyone? Because some people simply cannot afford to spend money. Because they don't have any to spend.
When I was beginning to play PoE, I had no money to spend on it. I barely had money to keep myself alive. PoE gave me joy for free, without making me feel like I'm worse than other people who were paying. Without being called a leech be it by developers or other players. And when I finally got the money (decent job, and so on), it felt like I had to repay them for the ethical stuff they did. And I did, more so than I ever should do. Mind you, what I've spent on PoE is equivalent of 2500$, because of currency I'm earning my money in.
If you think about that, you may understand that it pains me to see that GGG is abandoning this idea I felt was crucial to their success. People saw what they were about and supported that idea.
Now it feels like they are going the route of your everydays EA's and Activisions, who think of players as wallets with no minds of their own. They are not there yet, but I will not support this.
Think of it what you want, but I'm disappointed no matter how many ad hominems you throw at me.
I share exactly the same opinion these days.
GGG pushed for a special "snowflake" way of dealing with support for a very passionate idea, with the conviction that "if you build it, they will come and lend their support", but somewhere along the way, due to PoE growing up "without burning the baby fat", and without learning to walk before running, it became more efficient to "throw" stuff at their playerbase, with a disarming amount of "quantity > quality"...
And it shows...
I supported PoE with a lot more than the cost of fully developed AAA games, although at times it doesn't get to that level, and other times, reaches unthinkable goals in a surprising way. It is a veritable "roller-coaster ride".
If I will feel that PoE keeps being "fun", I will further lend my support, because with all the shortcomings, and all the directions that GGG took that are different than my own preferences, they still remain among the best in the gaming industry. Going forward, they just have to find way better balance, between danger and reward ratios for content, between adding "power creep" and then "toning it down" via content, and in also providing a moderate "taste" to access the content and the "convenience" the "supporters" greatly enjoy via "investing" in any additional tab.
A compromise regarding the amount of stacking content for a "limited" version of specific tab/tabs, to be added for "free" as long as the account reaches set "thresholds" would "equalise" the playing field in "the right way", and would further benefit GGG, twofold - they will still tout "ethical MTX", and with further fervor, as they would have given every player that "played the game" a one time reward, and they would surely "hook" more supporters in, both from the start and further down the road, as they would be more inclined to keep playing the game a longer time, due to the additional investment...
But that doesn't seem a priority when you launch a new kind of tab and publicly state that it won't enter the "regular" discount method for the first month, don't provide a way to stop the ingame spam of GGG "support" related notifications, and you're ill prepared to address the "Black Friday" discounts, oh, let's not even talk about the "new" payment system courtesy of Xsolla...
GGG needs to "man up" and improve even this side of QoL related aspects, sooner than later...
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Dec 14, 2017, 3:30:16 AM
No where does it state that non supporting players will have access to all the qol features and shiny pixels that others have. If you honestly play a game for the hundreds of hours you are bitching about to collect that amount of stuff and are unwilling to support the development of that game you are a leech. GGG idea and business model is to let people experience the full version of the game to ENTICE them into supporting it. There are MANY MANY ways around having to spend money for the qol improvements to play the game and as far as everyone bitching about stash space DEAL with it or create mule account(s). Ohh it takes you 5 minutes to transfer stuff from player a to player b THAT IS WHY IT IS A QOL improvement and NOT a p2win. Does it slow you down yes! But so does playing on a shitty connection or with a potato for a computer, do you also expect ggg to give unlimited servers, pay for your isp and give you a brand new i7? Some of you bitching about this really do think thats the case. There is no Inherent benefit on the non mtx account versus the maxed mtx account in terms of your individual characters ability to KIll any content in the game. THERE is a HUGE difference in the ability to have 1 character versus 10, But the exact same thing could be accomplished with 10 accounts which is NOT against the tos in any way. Heck they even let you run 2 instances at the same time so you can transfer stuff, You just can't have 1 set of controls controlling both toons.
So in summation: stop being a bunch of self entitled brats who think that the world owes you every and anything you want and look at things from an objective reasonable perspective. You will be a much happier individual in the long run.
I bolded some of the parts.
First of all, as always people go into leech/free-loader/whatever argument. Which is, of course, avoiding what I'm trying to talk about and instead go into ad hominems.
I never said I want to be freeloading, if you think about it most people don't want to.
Heck, I'm quite sure I spent more money on PoE than you did.
Should I call you a greedy person who cannot appreciate a good game? Will it change anything?
Secondly, you claim that GGG is enticing us to support them by giving us a great, FREE TO PLAY game, with no p2win. What you are missing is that I said the same thing: I did support GGG because of that.
I supported them because they weren't tunneling us into buying QoL/convenience/advantage features, but only sold MTX and minor convenience like stash tab space, which could easily be replaced with having another mule account. EASILY.
My problem is that they are starting to add more and more stuff that almost has to be bought to play on a decent level. They are adding shitton of new items you should be picking, or you are missing out.
Some people here are proposing to not pick up some items because they are not worth it, example being essences.
Can't you see this is pretty much equivalent of buying minor crafting items from cash shop in some shitty MMOs?
And I'm going to address the leech thing again. I viewed GGG's model as an idea. An ethical idea they were talking so much. They created a game that allowed everyone to participate and be effective, no matter if they paid or not.
Why do I care so much about it being fair for everyone? Because some people simply cannot afford to spend money. Because they don't have any to spend.
When I was beginning to play PoE, I had no money to spend on it. I barely had money to keep myself alive. PoE gave me joy for free, without making me feel like I'm worse than other people who were paying. Without being called a leech be it by developers or other players. And when I finally got the money (decent job, and so on), it felt like I had to repay them for the ethical stuff they did. And I did, more so than I ever should do. Mind you, what I've spent on PoE is equivalent of 2500$, because of currency I'm earning my money in.
If you think about that, you may understand that it pains me to see that GGG is abandoning this idea I felt was crucial to their success. People saw what they were about and supported that idea.
Now it feels like they are going the route of your everydays EA's and Activisions, who think of players as wallets with no minds of their own. They are not there yet, but I will not support this.
Think of it what you want, but I'm disappointed no matter how many ad hominems you throw at me.
I agreed with edgewood, just wanted to say that i like your very thought out response.
Myself i don't even "need" the new tabs, but they're fancy and make things look tidy, so i buy and use them...
It's true that i would be happy for people that genuinely can't easily afford something like this because of life (eg. default monthly income per country, not "gotta go to school, can't work") to be able to use it as well.
On the other hand, it sometimes boggles my mind how many stash tabs/other stuff they need to sell to even pay ~100 employees fair wages every single month and life in New Zealand is not cheap afaik. So as long as they're not selling power (anything true p2w) or things you would "need" before playing for 100+ hours, i can't really judge ...
Last edited by Antaiseito#1203 on Dec 14, 2017, 5:05:18 AM
P2w is gaining bonuses that influence gameplay power difference. Payng character is stronger that non paying character.
PoE is not P2w. If someone thinks it is its logic fallacy - YOU have wrong understanding what p2w is.
... Aaaaaaand you haven't read a single word I've written, my friend. Before claiming upper hand with your judgment, make sure you understand what you're talking about.
Hint: Nobody is saying stash tabs are making your character more powerful. This is not the point.
@Antaiseito They used to be able to afford everything with small team and small group of people supporting them. I expect that to be a thing now when they have tons of people supporting, Xbox and China release. You can't possibly tell me they cannot afford to develop a game. You simply can't.
Also, you seem to forget that GGG is selling weapon effects that cost 30$+.
Have you been in any act town recently? Have you seen how many of these are being sold? Are you really sure GGG has problems with money so that they need to sell stash tabs for 15$? And lets be clear here: I have no problem with GGG selling cosmetic MTX for 30$. Heck, I got some of that stuff myself.
What I have problem with is tunneling people into buying stash tabs for 15$, because the game is so annoying with the items nowadays.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
Last edited by Perq#4049 on Dec 14, 2017, 6:23:56 AM
The game with 4 stash tabs is, according to some here, not pay2win.
What about if it was only 2 stash tabs? What if there were zero stash tabs and you only had one character slot? Technically, you could still beat Shaper and Elder on that (realistically you probably wouldn't). Would that still be free2play?
I am not claiming it is pay2win in the sense that you pay and get an instant level-up or something like that. But if you ask me, by now it is more than pay4convenience, it is pay4ingameadvantage. This is not specifically because of the map stash tab, it is because every expansion we need more inventory space, and we don't get any more unless we pay for it. War for the Atlas specifically needs a lot of map inventory space. Extra stash tabs give a tangible, real, in-game advantage over players that do not have those stash tabs.
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de99ial wrote:
Also its is THEIR game and THEY makes the rules. You dont like it? No one is forcing You into playing it. Just stop and seek another game.
Ah yeah, that good old "argument".
This is a feedback forum. It is designed to give feedback. Which we do. Honestly, I think they should stop advertising it as free2play and start advertising it as free2try, which it is. And you can try a lot for free. Or just give more free stash tabs. But I fail to convince myself that this is just ethical look-better MTX they are selling at this point, that give no in-game advantage. Their MTX do give in-game advantages.
BTW, for me personally, it doesn't matter, I got all stash the special stash tabs (including the map stash tab that isn't functional for my purposes due to the search not working), quite some normal stash tabs and four quad tabs. So I am fine. But the game still stops being really free2play. Which I feel free to criticize.
And YES! Its THEIR game and they give it for free - You dont need any "key for money" to gen into any part of the content, You dont need to buy some weapon that allows You to go further, You dont need to pay for anything. You learn to manage Your items and currency with limited space but if You want somthing more comfortable THEN You pay. And THIS IS VERY VERY OK.
Feedback is fedback NOT "bragging about what I WANT FOR FREE You greedy f*****s".
Last edited by de99ial#0161 on Dec 14, 2017, 7:38:39 AM
