At first, I wanted to share my opinion on the changes mentioned in the OP but after reading through 163 pages of comments(yes..... I did read all of them), I find that there is not much I can say that hasn't already been said.
First, it saddens me to see that once again, many are rude (either in favor of the changes, or against them). But I guess, that has always been the case in light of such major patches/changes.
Second, here is a post from another player that I find very level-headed and is closer to my POV, he is much more articulate than I am (English is not my native language) so I quote him/her, here:
Spoiler
"
Xavathos wrote:
"
Archangel223 wrote:
I mean, The data speaks for itself really, While there are some life builds out there that can speedrun all guardians, shaper, Ubers, and maps with any mods the overwhelming majority of Life builds can't. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an affordable life build that can do all content in the game safely. Keyword in that sentence is affordable.
As mentioned in the notes and anyone playing this game long enough has noticed, The good ES rolled gear costs several EXs while pretty decent gear for a life build is often 1/10th of that so in the beginning or if you're not rich it makes more sense to be a life based build.
However, when it comes to taking on the end game content it's impossible to do on an affordable HP build. Again I use the word affordable. Most new players or new league starters won't be running around with gear worth more than 1 or 2 ex by the time they reach 80s(unless they get lucky). Those HP shaper speed runs that were posted for example. Estimated price of all gear in those vids is somewhere between 55-120ex.
If you can get this kind of currency then yeah HP can be made viable, still may die to a rock falling from the sky but yeah...you can do most content and be relatively safe as long as you use a select few builds.
So why aren't their more HP builds clearing all content and reaching the max level/end game?
"They suck, git gud!"
I hear you, however we're the correct phrase would be "get better" in this case. It's all about optimization. As someone mentioned a 10k+ RF HP build can clear a lot of the content in the game and be pretty comfortable. but a RF ES Build can do the same thing and do it better, especially with a Guardian support you can get a 45k RF ES build running around doing 4 times the amount of DPS as an HP RF build.
My point here is, If you're going to be spending money to build an expensive character you might as well build the best possible version of that character. And aside from a select few Marauder/Duelist builds it's simply safer and more optimal to be ES, especially CI/ES because of a free immunity to chaos(something that often plagues HP builds, especially in PVP).
anyone else notice there are no HP supports?, nothing in the game buffs HP, there is no discipline equivalent for HP builds, There are no Unique jewels that convert ES in the area to HP. You can still be 1-shot as a tanky HP build with 6-7k life and 10 endurance charges. 90% of end game builds have been ES builds for the past 1-2 years. Clearly something's wrong with the balance and some extreme measures must be taken at least in the BETA testing.
I don't believe all of these changes will hold up in 3.0, I do think it's worth testing some of these changes, If it turns out to be too much(I suspect it might) then slight buffs will be sure to come in 3.0.
The first sensible post I've seen in this thread. Thank you Archangel223.
I do believe that the VP/CI combo was tooo strong, trivialised content and a change was needed. Having said that, all the other changes seem to me to be way over the top as a whole... Not all of them have to/must happen.
Leaving VP for life builds could lead to :
"
Archangel223 wrote:
They hit pretty damn hard.
My biggest fear actually is we have a situation where now Life becomes better in every way than ES...and we have the same problem all over again.
We'll see what happens.
Again, I quote the same indivindual, since I agree with his/her comments.
Maybe as some say, GGG wants to start big in their changes and work from there, I can't really say, I don't know. Or maybe its like this person says:
"
GottaGoMonk wrote:
In social psychology (or "marketing" as people in the business like to call it), there's a cute persuasion technique called the Door-In-The-Face (DITF) technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique).
Basically if you were the CEO of a gaming company looking to slow player progression by implementing some really unpopular nerfs, it's better to first announce extreme over-the-top nerfs. Bandy around some crazy numbers taken from the top 1% of the player base to justify the nerfs and generate outrage.
After the rioting begins and the UN declares a State of Emergency, appeal for calm and announce the actual (originally intended) nerfs. There will be much relief and celebration. There will be fireworks and dancing in the streets. There will also probably be an orgasmic explosion of rampant profligacy in the mtx shop by relieved players.
It's a win-win situation for everyone.
This isn't about nerfing the top 1% who will always be the top 1% no matter what. This isn't about "game balance" or Life vs ES, or any of those other insignificant distractions. This is about slowing the progression of the mass majority of the player base to increase the Return on Invested Capital. After all, gaming assets don't just create themselves.
Actual business decisions revolve around more arcane but boring concepts like Return on Capital, Return on Equity, Debt/Equity ratios, Dividend Yields, and very important questions like "When do my stock options vest?" No one gives a shit about the current meta in executive boardroom meetings.
Well played GGG. :golf clap:
10/10 would love to be manipulated again.
I sincerely hope not though... I like to think GGG is above these kind of... "games"? shall we say?
Although I'm afraid that in the end:
"
Finnien wrote:
Unfortunately, based on history, that's not how GGG works. They announce an over-the-top nerf. Players complain. GGG doesn't care. Nerf goes through as stated. Builds die. End of story. They really just don't care.
:((( I mean it has been done before, anyone remember incinerate? Eldritch Battery? No matter the feedback, the changes happened.
I realize that this game is very complicated and therefore a bitch to balance it:)
But the announced changes to ES and everything feel more like gutting than balancing to me...
And although I do play life based builds mostly, I really hate it when the devs of a game (not just POE but in any game) try to dictate/push certain playstyles or builds to me. Which, I feel, happens whenever some skill or unique is nerfed to oblivion (keyword:nerfed, not balanced).
Anyways, my post is already too long, I really apologize for the length of it, I tried to summarize as best as I could. As for the changes, I guess we'll see how it goes in the beta and when 3.0 goes live in the end but until I agree with the changes coming I'm afraid I'll:
(and thats the last quote, I swear:) )
"
Aim_Deep wrote:
"
plodd wrote:
What a fucking joke
We wanted balance not just change of meta from es to life.
So super top geared people will be getting 15k es woopee doo
Problem is the majority of players will be getting 6-7k es with no leech now and life will have 7k+ with instant leech..
Not to mention the fact that as a spellcaster you can only get like 2% or touch more leech whilst sacrificing a gem slot, I guess silver lining is extra damage support but still its pathetic..
Talk about 1 extreme to another.
Fuck fuck fuck, why did I waste money on another supporter pack I must be insane.
I would have done better paying a blind man to paint my garage.
This sums it up. But that would be par for course with GGGs overzealous balance team. One extreme to next.
Speaking with your wallet is way to go. I have not bought a support pack in advance ever until I'm happy with release pack represents. Will do same here. Wait for final form evaluate and buy or not buy. I cant see these changes making "as is" in final form so I'll hold off harsh criticism as well.
"Too Wierd To Live... Too Rare To Die...."
Personal Motto
Finally made it to lvl 100... Only took me 3 years...:) :(
At first, I wanted to share my opinion on the changes mentioned in the OP but after reading through 163 pages of comments(yes..... I did read all of them), I find that there is not much I can say that hasn't already been said.
First, it saddens me to see that once again, many are rude (either in favor of the changes, or against them). But I guess, that has always been the case in light of such major patches/changes.
Second, here is a post from another player that I find very level-headed and is closer to my POV, he is much more articulate than I am (English is not my native language) so I quote him/her, here:
Spoiler
"
Xavathos wrote:
"
Archangel223 wrote:
I mean, The data speaks for itself really, While there are some life builds out there that can speedrun all guardians, shaper, Ubers, and maps with any mods the overwhelming majority of Life builds can't. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an affordable life build that can do all content in the game safely. Keyword in that sentence is affordable.
As mentioned in the notes and anyone playing this game long enough has noticed, The good ES rolled gear costs several EXs while pretty decent gear for a life build is often 1/10th of that so in the beginning or if you're not rich it makes more sense to be a life based build.
However, when it comes to taking on the end game content it's impossible to do on an affordable HP build. Again I use the word affordable. Most new players or new league starters won't be running around with gear worth more than 1 or 2 ex by the time they reach 80s(unless they get lucky). Those HP shaper speed runs that were posted for example. Estimated price of all gear in those vids is somewhere between 55-120ex.
If you can get this kind of currency then yeah HP can be made viable, still may die to a rock falling from the sky but yeah...you can do most content and be relatively safe as long as you use a select few builds.
So why aren't their more HP builds clearing all content and reaching the max level/end game?
"They suck, git gud!"
I hear you, however we're the correct phrase would be "get better" in this case. It's all about optimization. As someone mentioned a 10k+ RF HP build can clear a lot of the content in the game and be pretty comfortable. but a RF ES Build can do the same thing and do it better, especially with a Guardian support you can get a 45k RF ES build running around doing 4 times the amount of DPS as an HP RF build.
My point here is, If you're going to be spending money to build an expensive character you might as well build the best possible version of that character. And aside from a select few Marauder/Duelist builds it's simply safer and more optimal to be ES, especially CI/ES because of a free immunity to chaos(something that often plagues HP builds, especially in PVP).
anyone else notice there are no HP supports?, nothing in the game buffs HP, there is no discipline equivalent for HP builds, There are no Unique jewels that convert ES in the area to HP. You can still be 1-shot as a tanky HP build with 6-7k life and 10 endurance charges. 90% of end game builds have been ES builds for the past 1-2 years. Clearly something's wrong with the balance and some extreme measures must be taken at least in the BETA testing.
I don't believe all of these changes will hold up in 3.0, I do think it's worth testing some of these changes, If it turns out to be too much(I suspect it might) then slight buffs will be sure to come in 3.0.
The first sensible post I've seen in this thread. Thank you Archangel223.
I do believe that the VP/CI combo was tooo strong, trivialised content and a change was needed. Having said that, all the other changes seem to me to be way over the top as a whole... Not all of them have to/must happen.
Leaving VP for life builds could lead to :
"
Archangel223 wrote:
They hit pretty damn hard.
My biggest fear actually is we have a situation where now Life becomes better in every way than ES...and we have the same problem all over again.
We'll see what happens.
Again, I quote the same indivindual, since I agree with his/her comments.
Maybe as some say, GGG wants to start big in their changes and work from there, I can't really say, I don't know. Or maybe its like this person says:
"
GottaGoMonk wrote:
In social psychology (or "marketing" as people in the business like to call it), there's a cute persuasion technique called the Door-In-The-Face (DITF) technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique).
Basically if you were the CEO of a gaming company looking to slow player progression by implementing some really unpopular nerfs, it's better to first announce extreme over-the-top nerfs. Bandy around some crazy numbers taken from the top 1% of the player base to justify the nerfs and generate outrage.
After the rioting begins and the UN declares a State of Emergency, appeal for calm and announce the actual (originally intended) nerfs. There will be much relief and celebration. There will be fireworks and dancing in the streets. There will also probably be an orgasmic explosion of rampant profligacy in the mtx shop by relieved players.
It's a win-win situation for everyone.
This isn't about nerfing the top 1% who will always be the top 1% no matter what. This isn't about "game balance" or Life vs ES, or any of those other insignificant distractions. This is about slowing the progression of the mass majority of the player base to increase the Return on Invested Capital. After all, gaming assets don't just create themselves.
Actual business decisions revolve around more arcane but boring concepts like Return on Capital, Return on Equity, Debt/Equity ratios, Dividend Yields, and very important questions like "When do my stock options vest?" No one gives a shit about the current meta in executive boardroom meetings.
Well played GGG. :golf clap:
10/10 would love to be manipulated again.
I sincerely hope not though... I like to think GGG is above these kind of... "games"? shall we say?
Although I'm afraid that in the end:
"
Finnien wrote:
Unfortunately, based on history, that's not how GGG works. They announce an over-the-top nerf. Players complain. GGG doesn't care. Nerf goes through as stated. Builds die. End of story. They really just don't care.
:((( I mean it has been done before, anyone remember incinerate? Eldritch Battery? No matter the feedback, the changes happened.
I realize that this game is very complicated and therefore a bitch to balance it:)
But the announced changes to ES and everything feel more like gutting than balancing to me...
And although I do play life based builds mostly, I really hate it when the devs of a game (not just POE but in any game) try to dictate/push certain playstyles or builds to me. Which, I feel, happens whenever some skill or unique is nerfed to oblivion (keyword:nerfed, not balanced).
Anyways, my post is already too long, I really apologize for the length of it, I tried to summarize as best as I could. As for the changes, I guess we'll see how it goes in the beta and when 3.0 goes live in the end but until I agree with the changes coming I'm afraid I'll:
(and thats the last quote, I swear:) )
"
Aim_Deep wrote:
"
plodd wrote:
What a fucking joke
We wanted balance not just change of meta from es to life.
So super top geared people will be getting 15k es woopee doo
Problem is the majority of players will be getting 6-7k es with no leech now and life will have 7k+ with instant leech..
Not to mention the fact that as a spellcaster you can only get like 2% or touch more leech whilst sacrificing a gem slot, I guess silver lining is extra damage support but still its pathetic..
Talk about 1 extreme to another.
Fuck fuck fuck, why did I waste money on another supporter pack I must be insane.
I would have done better paying a blind man to paint my garage.
This sums it up. But that would be par for course with GGGs overzealous balance team. One extreme to next.
Speaking with your wallet is way to go. I have not bought a support pack in advance ever until I'm happy with release pack represents. Will do same here. Wait for final form evaluate and buy or not buy. I cant see these changes making "as is" in final form so I'll hold off harsh criticism as well.
I said this too a couple pages back regarding psychology, but he said it better. Putting this on my Dual Striker build thread
Dual Striker Leech Tank, creator since 11/2014
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1533986/page/1Umbra_the_Wolf
I'm really losing confidence in GGG. I think they have trouble communicating their vision for the game. I'd like to see them clearly define where they want the game to go at this point, so we can maybe understand why they choose to ignore the dozens of under-powered skills and life builds in favor of gutting ES. There is a reason people play ES over life, especially on HC, and nerfing ES doesn't address it.
At first, I wanted to share my opinion on the changes mentioned in the OP but after reading through 163 pages of comments(yes..... I did read all of them), I find that there is not much I can say that hasn't already been said.
First, it saddens me to see that once again, many are rude (either in favor of the changes, or against them). But I guess, that has always been the case in light of such major patches/changes.
Second, here is a post from another player that I find very level-headed and is closer to my POV, he is much more articulate than I am (English is not my native language) so I quote him/her, here:
Spoiler
"
Xavathos wrote:
"
Archangel223 wrote:
I mean, The data speaks for itself really, While there are some life builds out there that can speedrun all guardians, shaper, Ubers, and maps with any mods the overwhelming majority of Life builds can't. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an affordable life build that can do all content in the game safely. Keyword in that sentence is affordable.
As mentioned in the notes and anyone playing this game long enough has noticed, The good ES rolled gear costs several EXs while pretty decent gear for a life build is often 1/10th of that so in the beginning or if you're not rich it makes more sense to be a life based build.
However, when it comes to taking on the end game content it's impossible to do on an affordable HP build. Again I use the word affordable. Most new players or new league starters won't be running around with gear worth more than 1 or 2 ex by the time they reach 80s(unless they get lucky). Those HP shaper speed runs that were posted for example. Estimated price of all gear in those vids is somewhere between 55-120ex.
If you can get this kind of currency then yeah HP can be made viable, still may die to a rock falling from the sky but yeah...you can do most content and be relatively safe as long as you use a select few builds.
So why aren't their more HP builds clearing all content and reaching the max level/end game?
"They suck, git gud!"
I hear you, however we're the correct phrase would be "get better" in this case. It's all about optimization. As someone mentioned a 10k+ RF HP build can clear a lot of the content in the game and be pretty comfortable. but a RF ES Build can do the same thing and do it better, especially with a Guardian support you can get a 45k RF ES build running around doing 4 times the amount of DPS as an HP RF build.
My point here is, If you're going to be spending money to build an expensive character you might as well build the best possible version of that character. And aside from a select few Marauder/Duelist builds it's simply safer and more optimal to be ES, especially CI/ES because of a free immunity to chaos(something that often plagues HP builds, especially in PVP).
anyone else notice there are no HP supports?, nothing in the game buffs HP, there is no discipline equivalent for HP builds, There are no Unique jewels that convert ES in the area to HP. You can still be 1-shot as a tanky HP build with 6-7k life and 10 endurance charges. 90% of end game builds have been ES builds for the past 1-2 years. Clearly something's wrong with the balance and some extreme measures must be taken at least in the BETA testing.
I don't believe all of these changes will hold up in 3.0, I do think it's worth testing some of these changes, If it turns out to be too much(I suspect it might) then slight buffs will be sure to come in 3.0.
The first sensible post I've seen in this thread. Thank you Archangel223.
I do believe that the VP/CI combo was tooo strong, trivialised content and a change was needed. Having said that, all the other changes seem to me to be way over the top as a whole... Not all of them have to/must happen.
Leaving VP for life builds could lead to :
"
Archangel223 wrote:
They hit pretty damn hard.
My biggest fear actually is we have a situation where now Life becomes better in every way than ES...and we have the same problem all over again.
We'll see what happens.
Again, I quote the same indivindual, since I agree with his/her comments.
Maybe as some say, GGG wants to start big in their changes and work from there, I can't really say, I don't know. Or maybe its like this person says:
"
GottaGoMonk wrote:
In social psychology (or "marketing" as people in the business like to call it), there's a cute persuasion technique called the Door-In-The-Face (DITF) technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique).
Basically if you were the CEO of a gaming company looking to slow player progression by implementing some really unpopular nerfs, it's better to first announce extreme over-the-top nerfs. Bandy around some crazy numbers taken from the top 1% of the player base to justify the nerfs and generate outrage.
After the rioting begins and the UN declares a State of Emergency, appeal for calm and announce the actual (originally intended) nerfs. There will be much relief and celebration. There will be fireworks and dancing in the streets. There will also probably be an orgasmic explosion of rampant profligacy in the mtx shop by relieved players.
It's a win-win situation for everyone.
This isn't about nerfing the top 1% who will always be the top 1% no matter what. This isn't about "game balance" or Life vs ES, or any of those other insignificant distractions. This is about slowing the progression of the mass majority of the player base to increase the Return on Invested Capital. After all, gaming assets don't just create themselves.
Actual business decisions revolve around more arcane but boring concepts like Return on Capital, Return on Equity, Debt/Equity ratios, Dividend Yields, and very important questions like "When do my stock options vest?" No one gives a shit about the current meta in executive boardroom meetings.
Well played GGG. :golf clap:
10/10 would love to be manipulated again.
I sincerely hope not though... I like to think GGG is above these kind of... "games"? shall we say?
Although I'm afraid that in the end:
"
Finnien wrote:
Unfortunately, based on history, that's not how GGG works. They announce an over-the-top nerf. Players complain. GGG doesn't care. Nerf goes through as stated. Builds die. End of story. They really just don't care.
:((( I mean it has been done before, anyone remember incinerate? Eldritch Battery? No matter the feedback, the changes happened.
I realize that this game is very complicated and therefore a bitch to balance it:)
But the announced changes to ES and everything feel more like gutting than balancing to me...
And although I do play life based builds mostly, I really hate it when the devs of a game (not just POE but in any game) try to dictate/push certain playstyles or builds to me. Which, I feel, happens whenever some skill or unique is nerfed to oblivion (keyword:nerfed, not balanced).
Anyways, my post is already too long, I really apologize for the length of it, I tried to summarize as best as I could. As for the changes, I guess we'll see how it goes in the beta and when 3.0 goes live in the end but until I agree with the changes coming I'm afraid I'll:
(and thats the last quote, I swear:) )
"
Aim_Deep wrote:
"
plodd wrote:
What a fucking joke
We wanted balance not just change of meta from es to life.
So super top geared people will be getting 15k es woopee doo
Problem is the majority of players will be getting 6-7k es with no leech now and life will have 7k+ with instant leech..
Not to mention the fact that as a spellcaster you can only get like 2% or touch more leech whilst sacrificing a gem slot, I guess silver lining is extra damage support but still its pathetic..
Talk about 1 extreme to another.
Fuck fuck fuck, why did I waste money on another supporter pack I must be insane.
I would have done better paying a blind man to paint my garage.
This sums it up. But that would be par for course with GGGs overzealous balance team. One extreme to next.
Speaking with your wallet is way to go. I have not bought a support pack in advance ever until I'm happy with release pack represents. Will do same here. Wait for final form evaluate and buy or not buy. I cant see these changes making "as is" in final form so I'll hold off harsh criticism as well.
U quote Angel?? u shouldn't even offer opinion and neither should he. Ur UNFECTED it doesn't concern ur game stile or ur build. He thinks life is average (OBSERDE coment) at best & ES need to be somehow scaled back cos apparently ES is better. Out of 160 pages u think he's is u beute comment where as maybe 90% people here would disagree. PLs explain
Nah, if the game becomes a pain to play then many won't be coming back. I can only put in an hour or two max a day so I stick to Standard for running a few maps a day with my main whilst getting around 5% xp in that two hours without dying. If ES builds become like life builds where you die occasionally from crap even with mirror tier investments then my time is better spent elsewhere.
At first, I wanted to share my opinion on the changes mentioned in the OP but after reading through 163 pages of comments(yes..... I did read all of them), I find that there is not much I can say that hasn't already been said.
First, it saddens me to see that once again, many are rude (either in favor of the changes, or against them). But I guess, that has always been the case in light of such major patches/changes.
Second, here is a post from another player that I find very level-headed and is closer to my POV, he is much more articulate than I am (English is not my native language) so I quote him/her, here:
Spoiler
"
Xavathos wrote:
"
Archangel223 wrote:
I mean, The data speaks for itself really, While there are some life builds out there that can speedrun all guardians, shaper, Ubers, and maps with any mods the overwhelming majority of Life builds can't. In fact you would be hard pressed to find an affordable life build that can do all content in the game safely. Keyword in that sentence is affordable.
As mentioned in the notes and anyone playing this game long enough has noticed, The good ES rolled gear costs several EXs while pretty decent gear for a life build is often 1/10th of that so in the beginning or if you're not rich it makes more sense to be a life based build.
However, when it comes to taking on the end game content it's impossible to do on an affordable HP build. Again I use the word affordable. Most new players or new league starters won't be running around with gear worth more than 1 or 2 ex by the time they reach 80s(unless they get lucky). Those HP shaper speed runs that were posted for example. Estimated price of all gear in those vids is somewhere between 55-120ex.
If you can get this kind of currency then yeah HP can be made viable, still may die to a rock falling from the sky but yeah...you can do most content and be relatively safe as long as you use a select few builds.
So why aren't their more HP builds clearing all content and reaching the max level/end game?
"They suck, git gud!"
I hear you, however we're the correct phrase would be "get better" in this case. It's all about optimization. As someone mentioned a 10k+ RF HP build can clear a lot of the content in the game and be pretty comfortable. but a RF ES Build can do the same thing and do it better, especially with a Guardian support you can get a 45k RF ES build running around doing 4 times the amount of DPS as an HP RF build.
My point here is, If you're going to be spending money to build an expensive character you might as well build the best possible version of that character. And aside from a select few Marauder/Duelist builds it's simply safer and more optimal to be ES, especially CI/ES because of a free immunity to chaos(something that often plagues HP builds, especially in PVP).
anyone else notice there are no HP supports?, nothing in the game buffs HP, there is no discipline equivalent for HP builds, There are no Unique jewels that convert ES in the area to HP. You can still be 1-shot as a tanky HP build with 6-7k life and 10 endurance charges. 90% of end game builds have been ES builds for the past 1-2 years. Clearly something's wrong with the balance and some extreme measures must be taken at least in the BETA testing.
I don't believe all of these changes will hold up in 3.0, I do think it's worth testing some of these changes, If it turns out to be too much(I suspect it might) then slight buffs will be sure to come in 3.0.
The first sensible post I've seen in this thread. Thank you Archangel223.
I do believe that the VP/CI combo was tooo strong, trivialised content and a change was needed. Having said that, all the other changes seem to me to be way over the top as a whole... Not all of them have to/must happen.
Leaving VP for life builds could lead to :
"
Archangel223 wrote:
They hit pretty damn hard.
My biggest fear actually is we have a situation where now Life becomes better in every way than ES...and we have the same problem all over again.
We'll see what happens.
Again, I quote the same indivindual, since I agree with his/her comments.
...
I hope I am not buchered meaning of your post while quoting part of it. Actually I agree, changed my opinion I mostly like changes. In fact CI looks too strong, now, I even would say even melee int is capable builds even now(even without VP/GR I dislike this combo and also think it is too OP so I try not to use it, Rem same with all sorts ofdoble dipping it was fun to see you can while it lasted, but I was always wondering how GGG were going to give preferences, so those changes are ok with me too, game gets more content), Int melee skills have splash and a bit of range, and should play differently than marauder builds(Both shadow and witch ones.)
And for more tanky builds there is templar with ZO. There are shield recharge start time reduction nodes, too little, but there are also jewels(Magic ones would do), and I heard though unconfirmed, that Discipline gets with nerf to pool buff to that time reduction. Definitely in line where it could be used. And not taking for 2 seconds damage is doable, maybe labyrinth for such build would be not as fun, mostly last encounter, it looks too crouded with traps adds, explosions.
The only concern for now is it looks like flavor without reason, that's it. Like I can't answer question why should I take CI over life,ascendancy help a bit with those, but I'd like to see something specialonly attributed to CI (Actually chaos immunity even if strong, just not that flavor, because: "and this place has no chaos damage, but has lightning damage/lots of burning to wear you down, and or lots of freeze) and you again ask yourself why I took CI.
I can't even say now what it could be maybe some selection of excusive node paths behind CI(Not necessarry as mechanics but by design making choice either challange or stupid.)
Examples would be( Convert 10% elemental damage to chaos damage, and 10% chaos damage tophysical. Or something like your attacks spend 10% of your ES and convert it to damage(scaled), your ES leaches life essence from surrounding monsters, reducing time to rechage the longer you keep them near.) Dunno maybe one of thos e could be good, maybe it needs just small push not making people super tanky choice, but giving it purpose to utilize for something special inheritanly. Because even now the main reason to have CI is to have that 15% more stone.
P.s.
Spoiler
Please be sensible and polite. GGG developers maybe not the best of ones who balance or fix, but they learn and becoming better, and they are more interested in making game they like and wanted to play. They kindly listen and if sugguestion is good, they would implement fixes. This way you help both them and others become better. And another thing even though I disagree of idea some boss skills are oneshots meta and always thing there should be second chancce, chance to recover, to keep suspence and reward knowledge. Boss fight that reward mechanics knowledge and doom you if you disrespect them. but it is their choice.(Closer to D2 mechanics, well at least on second chance part.) They listened to me when I said it ruins few uniques I adressed, and added more contents to adress some uniques ruined
Spoiler
and later implemented sugguestions by allowing some low level uniques to upgrade and become better thorugh prophesies
. Not closely to my sugguestion but it is even became better. So just try to keep in mind they have their own design standpoint and they unlikely to change it just because someone says it. So I also try to adhere to their design standpoint to try and go with proposed changes.
I hope I am not buchered meaning of your post while quoting part of it. Actually I agree, changed my opinion I mostly like changes. In fact CI looks too strong, now, I even would say even melee int is capable builds even now(even without VP/GR I dislike this combo and also think it is too OP so I try not to use it, Rem same with all sorts ofdoble dipping it was fun to see you can while it lasted, but I was always wondering how GGG were going to give preferences, so those changes are ok with me too, game gets more content), Int melee skills have splash and a bit of range, and should play differently than marauder builds(Both shadow and witch ones.)
And for more tanky builds there is templar with ZO. There are shield recharge start time reduction nodes, too little, but there are also jewels(Magic ones would do), and I heard though unconfirmed, that Discipline gets with nerf to pool buff to that time reduction. Definitely in line where it could be used. And not taking for 2 seconds damage is doable, maybe labyrinth for such build would be not as fun, mostly last encounter, it looks too crouded with traps adds, explosions.
The only concern for now is it looks like flavor without reason, that's it. Like I can't answer question why should I take CI over life,ascendancy help a bit with those, but I'd like to see something specialonly attributed to CI (Actually chaos immunity even if strong, just not that flavor, because: "and this place has no chaos damage, but has lightning damage/lots of burning to wear you down, and or lots of freeze) and you again ask yourself why I took CI.
I can't even say now what it could be maybe some selection of excusive node paths behind CI(Not necessarry as mechanics but by design making choice either challange or stupid.)
Examples would be( Convert 10% elemental damage to chaos damage, and 10% chaos damage tophysical. Or something like your attacks spend 10% of your ES and convert it to damage(scaled), your ES leaches life essence from surrounding monsters, reducing time to rechage the longer you keep them near.) Dunno maybe one of thos e could be good, maybe it needs just small push not making people super tanky choice, but giving it purpose to utilize for something special inheritanly. Because even now the main reason to have CI is to have that 15% more stone.
P.s.
Spoiler
Please be sensible and polite. GGG developers maybe not the best of ones who balance or fix, but they learn and becoming better, and they are more interested in making game they like and wanted to play. They kindly listen and if sugguestion is good, they would implement fixes. This way you help both them and others become better. And another thing even though I disagree of idea some boss skills are oneshots meta and always thing there should be second chancce, chance to recover, to keep suspence and reward knowledge. Boss fight that reward mechanics knowledge and doom you if you disrespect them. but it is their choice.(Closer to D2 mechanics, well at least on second chance part.) They listened to me when I said it ruins few uniques I adressed, and added more contents to adress some uniques ruined
Spoiler
and later implemented sugguestions by allowing some low level uniques to upgrade and become better thorugh prophesies
. Not closely to my sugguestion but it is even became better. So just try to keep in mind they have their own design standpoint and they unlikely to change it just because someone says it. So I also try to adhere to their design standpoint to try and go with proposed changes.
