Is the root problem that the Labyrinth is "Optional"?

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raics wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

I say about the time that developers stopped shipping completed games and started the model of building the game while selling and maintaining said game.

Sure, that's one factor, but I'm wondering about the mindset. The game puts a challenge before you and you say 'I don't like it, give me something else'.

Sorry, but I'm not feeling challenged by low visibility very long trap gauntlets. They are annoying as hell, but to feel challenging they would have to work in tandem with monsters to require tactic and strategic skillplay - which those old school RPG with some of the "annoying" quest actually did.

The separation of traps and monsters was a bad design decision, as it would have been a lot better to have to use traps at times to dispose of some difficult monsters that block your way, to have all the traps destructible so you could forfeit more time, but make your own path towards the true challenge (Izaro fights) or even have well protected master switches that disable trap gauntlets.

Labyrinth prevents zerging, and touts itself as having a great gear/build/skillplay check in Izaro so why have carries available and nullify what should feel an awesome accomplishment on your own, by trivialising it when paying for an carry...

The argument regarding the mindset should be that the game places a "challenge" before you, and we actually ask for more diversity, or at least a moderate improvement to an experience that feels lackluster.

And some of us did that all along, asking developers during alphas/betas or to add via an addon/sequel certain improvements or reworks regarding tedious mechanics.

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Emphasy wrote:

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They are (paraphrasing) "concerned with a slippery slope where people want rewards without engaging with the content." ... Yeah, this is a pet project that they threw too much money into to see fail, by not having the entire game's population playing it. You must like it! It's too big to fail... that's what comes to mind here. This isn't a simple "wah wah it's too hard - give me points free!" issue that they'd be "caving" to. If they give an alternative method of gaining ascendancy and everyone chooses the alternative, would it hurt their feelings? Are they not satisfied with people farming Uberlab for Izaro's treasures and enchants that they also have to force every single player to experience the labyrinth at least 3 if not 4 times, while some hate every minute of it and make less and less characters per league or don't play at all anymore?

That is what happens. Games are Art and nobody would ever tell and Artist something like "Uhm... I would prefer your sky a bit brighter otherwise I won't look at your picture anymore."

Games are made with a vision in mind and are played by players who like that vision and even though it is fine to voice feedback it is also totally fine for a developer to ignore it and that's what happened here. If people think after a year, or how long the lab exists now, that nobody read their arguments and took them into consideration they are very likely wrong. They propably know how players feel, but again as an Artist you always have to think about your vision and the Ascendancy is heavily linked with the Labyrinth right now, it is not possible lorewise to ascent otherwise they would have to write an entirely new story for it which is a shitton of work.

Because after they fixed most of the issues (and there are a few they could still fix, although they might have to do some lore concessions there as well), complaints about the lab are entirely based on opinions, not liking something doesn't make it bad. I don't like Onions and a shitton of people find onions totally awesome. And if you don't like the lab you are essentially left with two options, either deal with it or leave.

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I feel that if it was there would have been a marked decrease in amount of players after it was introduced. This would have been noticed by GGG.

There player numbers are rising, but you could of course always argue that it would rise more without the lab, but that is pure speculation.

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That said, the selling point of these things is to have a say and influence the direction of a game. Games today, especially this one, are in a constant state of development, and as such, why is it not ok to voice your opinion on the direction the game is moving in?

It is totally ok to voice your opinion, actually every developer loves to hear your opinion, good ones even if you are not happy with something. But this still gives them all the authority to just ignore your opinion as what it is, an opinion. Most early lab complaints raised actual issues, not finishable layouts, a really harsh normal izaro fight and having to do trials on every single character. Those are fixed and some like the unfinishable layouts should honestly never happened. But the question if traps belong into an ARPG is not an issue, that is an opinion. And if the Devs say that traps fit, this discussion is basically over, because the opinion that matters in this case is theirs.

Oh, so in a game that touted variety and diversity in attaining your goals, it's ok to have Ascendancy points in "Labyrinth" and not think about alternating correct pathways towards that goal...

I don't have a problem with the artistic concept of the "Labyrinth", but to have it as a racing content instead of a randomised solo run, heck I'll concede it and would like it to be a mandatory solo experience only for the first Uber Lab run when you want your last 2 Ascendancy points, feels a lot like a big @#^* you towards the players that like to explore and kill stuff in an ARPG none the less...

I would like to believe that certain improvements which would improve the "Labyrinth" experience for all players that aren't happy about the current state (and won't make it any worse for those that already enjoy it) could get implemented, or we will end with your binary - like "Lab" or @#&* off - point of view...

When Labyrinth first came out, I was pissed about having indestructible traps, then Uber Lab came out and I got excited when they mentioned destructible traps. The disappointment of not having the option to make your own safe path through the traps although they should have made them all destructible from the start, or not having master switches that are protected by difficult encounters - we have multiple essence possessed monsters more difficult than bosses at times why? - all palled in comparison with the linear map for a "Labyrinth"...

If it's so fun to have trap gauntlets to slow down players unnecessarily, why not disable all movement speed bonuses and movement skills in Labyrinth and keep a few 100% increases on Darkshrines after a few silver doors? Let's see how you will feel about those "beautiful" gauntlets...

I still hope that they could make a compromise and further improve the experience for the "Labyrinth"...

first: it is entirely possible that GGG is pretty aware that certain player demographic does not like part of their game. and they EXPECT them to leave.

some of you might cry 'blasphemy, no business ever wants their customers to leave!'. o'rly? why certain brands aim at certain (usually higher) tiers of society? because it is better - for them - to focus on one demographic instead of catering to everyone.

second: you guys are WASTLY and i mean that - WASTLY - dramatize how much the 'traps' take of the lab. on a standard day the traps are more like 3-4 times a run scenario. you mostly just run 'top-left' in general direction, SLAY monsters on the way! (yes, you can do that - maybe people who talk instead of playing missed that), SOMETIMES encounter a gauntlet and then reach izaro

some of you claim it is different than normal gameplay - it is not. it is clear speed meta in the nutshell.
your movement speed and skills matter - they do in the lab and in maps.
your damage and defences matter - more in the lab than in the maps. because in maps you just need the damage and vaal pact (stupid mechanics are stupid - i map with 3.5k hp right now..)
your spatial orientation matters - both in traps AND during izaro fight and in maps (unless you just facetank the sh.. of it)

people claim that lab is so different yet you can easily and efficiently level in merc lab (with added bonus of enchants and currency drops from chests). lab has very high density of strongboxes and ghosts (way higher than in maps) -> loot.

it is you guys who think that you NEED to bumrush it. you do not. it is you who see only traps and yet there are days when you meet one gauntlet per two segments..


what hurts most of the 'i do not like it' are:

1) logouts hurt. and lets be real - most players relly on their logouts HEAVILY. noone will admit to that yet every f.. 'rip video' ends up with unsuccessful logout. cowards liars and cheaters squeak when their precious 'skill' is taken away

2) free rewards are better than stuff you have to work towards. foreign concept to majoroty of gamers - teenagers without obligations. surely, working towards something sucks compared to being handed free candy

3) lab tests more than only DPS. game got dumbed down so low that most playerbase nowadays cares only about DPS. and their build, think and play with this and only this in mind. and now you enter the lab where YOU as a player also matters. and the player is not ready..

4) there are certain things in the lab that are in dire need of polish - mostly ground clutter that is both annoying and dangerous. these are valid complaints but supposedly ggg is polishing this aspect in 3.0

5) comfort zone. when you do something for years and now someone changes the rules.. it sucks. adapt or leave. there will be many more changes (note: i also do not like certain changes - mostly 10/10 ineptidute in the balance area and absurd power creep and tuning end-game for meta-only. and im on the verge of leaving over that - but i wont 'crusade' the forums for days and days.


note: GGG is most probably happy that several individuals made this crusade their meaning of life.. and the rest of the world happily moved on

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sidtherat wrote:

some of you claim it is different than normal gameplay - it is not.

That would include GGG.

Official webpage on the Trials of Ascendancy:

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Six types of lethal traps have been crafted by Izaro into elaborate puzzle rooms - an entirely new gameplay type for Path of Exile.

Chris Wilson in a Gaming Nexus interview (around 23:48):

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We wanted to add this labyrinth to the game...and it's just completely orthogonal to the rest of the game content.

i hope you are better at reading trough PR statements than that

what companies SAY is different to what companies DO

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raics wrote:

You know, I remember this back in the day. You'd play some action rpg, say, some entry from might and magic series, and to upgrade your char's class you'd have a promotion quest. Some were trivial, some easy, some moderately annoying and some annoying as all seven hells so some members of your party would stay unapgraded long after the other members attained their advanced classes.

Now I ask all of you regardless of the side taken: Since when has it become a thing to badger a developer to change the quest you don't like to something you do? I don't really remember at which point did it happen, I suppose it just went real gradual, eh? Like the way Fox turned into a hardcore porn channel?

It's like a trend, people can hide behind internet accounts thinking that they are completely anonymous, and well .....
I mean, it's easier to gather feedback, that's great, but people think that they can do whatever they want without consequences and go all crazy about so many things, it's kinda ridiculous, isn't it ?
It gives people the illusion that they have power, and whereas some people do give actual helpful feedback, you have the baby reactions too :
"I don't like it" ---> "BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH !!!"
It is a tiny bit useful to GGG I guess, but will they ignore it ? Most likely .... most of it.

Also the new generations IRL @"I want it all and I want it now" are also not helping overall imho.

Some of the MM[V-XIII] had annoying promotion quest, but it felt so good to be done with them and see the character upgraded !

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Zaludoz wrote:

It's not a challenge that equally tests all builds being worthy of endgame. It's not equally testing all players' skill. There are ways to "cheat" the labyrinth that remove all build and skill diversity (should they choose to employ them). It's an arbitrary challenge that they think Ascendancy points should be behind, and many rational players disagree with that point.

Oh please .....
All of the game contents has a different impact ( even slightly ) on every build, all of it.
And lab is one of the things that you can cheeze the less in the whole game.

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Turtledove wrote:

This is a game. It isn't comfort zone, that's plain ridiculous. Labyrinth is BORING, IRRITATING, and NOT FUN. It isn't about comfort zones?

And again, that nonsense @"It is supposed to be fun so god forbid it requires any effort from me !!!"
If putting some effort into something isn't fun at all for you, I suggest you play things like candy crush.

And yes, I do believe that many ( not all, not specifically you ) crybabies are using "it's boring" to try to hide the "it want it easier".
Plain and simple.

PS : they are pieces of different gameplay into a wide areas having mostly the same kind of stuff that there was before.
That does not make the whole area "a complete different gameplay".

Obviously.

I doubt that even dedicated runners find lab entertaing and fun. But mostly profitable.

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torturo wrote:

I doubt that even dedicated runners find lab entertaing and fun. But mostly profitable.

Like everything else in the game for them I guess.

Some people play games trying to just be among the bests, what about them ?
If they find joy in competing for such things, give them the opportunity to do so.

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Fruz wrote:

It's like a trend, people can hide behind internet accounts thinking that they are completely anonymous, and well .....
I mean, it's easier to gather feedback, that's great, but people think that they can do whatever they want without consequences and go all crazy about so many things, it's kinda ridiculous, isn't it ?
It gives people the illusion that they have power, and whereas some people do give actual helpful feedback, you have the baby reactions too

well, it's likely that the breach at ggg results in names behind poe accounts being published somewhere.

anonymity? an illusion, exile!

i don't expect "rmt delivery for cronus" mails in the future but i wouldn't be surprised.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

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raics wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

I say about the time that developers stopped shipping completed games and started the model of building the game while selling and maintaining said game.

Sure, that's one factor, but I'm wondering about the mindset. The game puts a challenge before you and you say 'I don't like it, give me something else'.

Sorry, but I'm not feeling challenged by low visibility very long trap gauntlets. They are annoying as hell, but to feel challenging they would have to work in tandem with monsters to require tactic and strategic skillplay - which those old school RPG with some of the "annoying" quest actually did.

The separation of traps and monsters was a bad design decision, as it would have been a lot better to have to use traps at times to dispose of some difficult monsters that block your way, to have all the traps destructible so you could forfeit more time, but make your own path towards the true challenge (Izaro fights) or even have well protected master switches that disable trap gauntlets.

Labyrinth prevents zerging, and touts itself as having a great gear/build/skillplay check in Izaro so why have carries available and nullify what should feel an awesome accomplishment on your own, by trivialising it when paying for an carry...

The argument regarding the mindset should be that the game places a "challenge" before you, and we actually ask for more diversity, or at least a moderate improvement to an experience that feels lackluster.

And some of us did that all along, asking developers during alphas/betas or to add via an addon/sequel certain improvements or reworks regarding tedious mechanics.

I do agree low visibility gauntlets should be improved and you won't hear me say any different. If you got content that requires planning ahead and you also have to go in blindly it's bad design, that's one thing they could certainly improve upon.

We should probably keep in mind you can't really please everybody, for instance, I liked Vorici's missions more when it was easier to mess them up and some found that annoying as hell. We could take it to boss fights too, some don't enjoy bosses like Atziri because you either have to build for her if you want to counter her abilities or outplay her and they don't fancy doing either.

Say, anyone tried the lightning bolt dodging in FFX?

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raics wrote:

Say, anyone tried the lightning bolt dodging in FFX?

Ok that one was just too much, the only thing that I didn't like in FFX I think, honestly.
They would have made it 50 ..... well okay, but 200 wasn't it ???

And I also agree about a few gauntlets having not enough visibility.
I guess that GGG wanted player to need good reactions about something that you could not plan the first time, but ..... still.