[2.6] IMMORTAL MF GOLEMS - Shaper / Uber / ALL Guardians *WHILE DEAD*

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tomay wrote:

I don't care for the Ignites (Burning Damage), using EF myself but in regard to your gem setuo (EF and CD) Empower still trumps Controlled Destruction on the damage front not to mention the greatly increased golem life.

Fire Penetration only shines if we die while fighting The Shaper/Guardians and it can easily be swapped for Empower where needed. So ultimately Controlled Destruction is the poorest choice.

#1. Debate was between empower vs. fire penetration

#2. Where exactly are you getting the base damage numbers for flame golems and how are you discerning that damage between their three abilities?

#3. Controlled destruction is recommended because of the cost of a level 4 empower and the fact that even if your numbers are correct, the difference as you wrote is negligible.

Added golem life helps only in the content that most people aren't running regularly enough to matter anyway so that's really a non-issue except for the overwhelming minority of players who are building specifically for that content (for them, go empower because golem life > golem dps). So you're left with damage difference between the two and without accurate DPS numbers provided by GGG, we're left with having to eyeball it while factoring in the efficiency associated with the massive cost difference.

My golems already never die and I'm putting that extra 5ex toward upgraded gear to raise my ES. My specific build is centered around efficiency in the area of farming and leveling (both chr and gems). That may change when I hit whatever level I decided to stop. You'll notice I never created a build guide in this thread nor elsewhere. The reason is because my specific goals may not be the same as other people, including the maps I'm running and there are many different ways you can run this build based on priorities which must be left to the individual to decide.

Where I will chime in is when there are blatant incorrect statements made by anyone, the latest being MrsDeath claiming Fire Pen results in more DPS than Ele Focus.

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VGLance wrote:

#2. Where exactly are you getting the base damage numbers for flame golems and how are you discerning that damage between their three abilities?

From the Wiki page:

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Summon_Flame_Golem

Each additional level increases the monster level by 2 so lvl 21 Summon Flame Golem will summon a Flame Golem with monster level 72, lvl 24 Summon Flame Golem (with Empower lvl 4) will summon a Flame golem with monster level 78. From the table at the bottom of the page you get the respective base life and base min/max damage (which I suppose is the same for all three spells used by the golems).

P.S. I've edited my previous post, saying that "I stand corrected" in regard to the damage calculations. :)

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VGLance wrote:

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

Fire pen is usually removed while switching to empower.
Fire pen is way better than empower.
Also we dont use elemental focus because we want some juicy burning damage.
U are the only one who suggests fire pen should not be used... I dk why u said that.

#1. Go back and read, I said fire pen is better between the two. Mostly because while it's useless on trash mobs, trash mobs are one-shot under either scenario anyway.

#2. That juicy burning damage is not juicy. It doesn't stack. The mere fact that you can choose application of one burning damage dot over 5 flame golems doing so much more damage every single time they hit, especially with spell echo is yet just further proof you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice.

Don't feel bad, most threads in this game are rife with inaccuracies because even after many years, an overwhelming number of players are still confused about game mechanics. The difference is whether or not you have the character to do the right thing and stop.

I could not care less about what other people confused about. I want that ignite damage and i saw it killing many bosses.You can stay with ur EF i ll always keep my gems as i suggested the best WAY! Sorry about the way you calculate your damage but i do trust wiki.
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Resistance_penetration
I ll never stop suggesting the best way perhaps u ll get ur facts together and help ur own way.
I played this build for such long time with all variations. I builded 4 golementalists and levelled many more.I dont see you in a position to question my services for this build's users.Give us a reason to use the gems u are using and we may change our minds.Untill then cya.

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

I could not care less about what other people confused about. I want that ignite damage and i saw it killing many bosses.You can stay with ur EF i ll always keep my gems as i suggested the best WAY! Sorry about the way you calculate your damage but i do trust wiki.
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Resistance_penetration
I ll never stop suggesting the best way perhaps u ll get ur facts together and help ur own way.
I played this build for such long time with all variations. I builded 4 golementalists and levelled many more.I dont see you in a position to question my services for this build's users.Give us a reason to use the gems u are using and we may change our minds.Untill then cya.

I would love to know how old you are, not that there aren't exceptions to the rule but the combination of a gross lack of social skills as well as deductive reasoning skills suggests a very young age. If not chronologically, definitely developmentally.

Do you not even hear yourself? "The best way?" For what? There is no best way because the sheer number of varying goals and priorities require different setups. You're not learning any lessons from this thread or from the people in it. Here's another lesson you'll likely ignore. People who speak in absolutes lose all credibility. Even the thinnest paper has two sides. When you go one way with this build it comes at a cost in some other way.

If you ever want to amount to something in the real world, you better start figuring out how to mature your thought processes and behavior because your current state is troubling to put it mildly.

What juvenile argument are you going to make next? You going to mail me a bible as proof God exists?

Pointing to a wiki page to support your argument without even isolating anything on the page and explaining how specific items are connected is just further proof you have the mind of a child.

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

I want that ignite damage and i saw it killing many bosses

This I really doubt. We cannot stack multiple active Ignite instances (not even with Emberwake as it doesn't affect minions).

So, only one active Ignite instance can deal Burning Damage at any given time, which is 20% of the damage of a single hit dealt by one golem over 4 seconds. Nothing to write home about really in the grand scheme of things.

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VGLance wrote:

Controlled destruction is recommended because of the cost of a level 4 empower.

Added golem life helps only in the content that most people aren't running regularly enough to matter anyway so that's really a non-issue except for the overwhelming minority of players

Let's not kid ourselves, people who can afford to "waste" 40+ Exalted Orbs (and this is what it boils down to considering all the jewels, divine Ventors, a b@d@$$ 6-link Vaal Regalia, IIQ gem, etc.) on a build able kill the toughest bosses the game has to offer, will always be a tiny minority. And anyone willing to cough up such a ginormous amount of currency can't be @r$ed farming some random rubbish (i.e. T14 or lower)

As the thread title (Shaper / Uber / ALL Guardians *WHILE DEAD*) suggests, you can farm the ultimate challenges in Path of Exile rather effortless with tons of IIQ/IIR while being entirely oblivious of all the bloody fight mechanics they throw at you. Now, whether you prefer to kill the trash on your way to the boss with Elemental Focus, Controlled Destruction, Fire Penetration, or Empower, doesn't make the tiniest shred of a difference. Fact is, "while dead" Fire Penetration is the strongest gem in the setup vs The Shaper and the Guardians.

You can argue, your setup is a tad more "cost efficient" (Empower 4 = 4ex vs CD 21/20 = 1ex) but no matter how you spin it, this will never ever be a "budget-friendly build for the casual player".

Actually you can make this build viable with minimal investment. Once you get to level 41 to equip two clayshapers, it's one of the fastest leveling builds. Early on it's just the anima stone that really costs the most.

Going for high tier maps and end game bosses requires a much higher investment, but what build doesn't?

But here's my point:

"While dead" doesn't work while you're still grinding xp and currency. Hence my current setup. This build morphs more than most builds as you progress. I can even go balls deep and give up all ES and go max harmony jewels for a suicide build I only log on after my other toon clears the way to the boss as a guild member did. Something like 17 harmonies I think it came to.

Fire pen has no place in ~my~ build based on what I need to do since the alternatives are better. For me. I made it clear from the beginning, players need to shape this build based on their current needs as they will not be the same from one player to another. There is no best way for everyone like MrsDeath says.

I'm chaining shaped strands and soon will be chaining shaped shores as well. Because of my high MF which I will also be eventually using a IIQ gem, fire pen will even be further from the cut of gems that make it into the 6-link.

Explain to me why I need fire pen to handle shaped strand and shaped shore bosses. Maybe I'm missing something.

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It can be shown that resistance penetration is more effective in terms of damage dealt against targets with higher resistances.

source: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Resistance_penetration
This is why we use fire pen over everything else.
And we do not switch iiq and iir into flame golem because:
More monsters you kill=more loots u ll get.
If you switch into iiq gem instead of anything else you choose u ll be losing clear speed while gaining quantity. But it actually takes more time to clear monsters and conclude with dropping your rate of currency/time you use to clear a map.
There are better links w/o dropping anything from flame golem links such as tomay used lightning golem - iiq - iir - culling strike.

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

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It can be shown that resistance penetration is more effective in terms of damage dealt against targets with higher resistances.

source: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Resistance_penetration
This is why we use fire pen over everything else.
And we do not switch iiq and iir into flame golem because:
More monsters you kill=more loots u ll get.
If you switch into iiq gem instead of anything else you choose u ll be losing clear speed while gaining quantity. But it actually takes more time to clear monsters and conclude with dropping your rate of currency/time you use to clear a map.
There are better links w/o dropping anything from flame golem links such as tomay used lightning golem - iiq - iir - culling strike.

Thanks for proving my point. Now kindly explain which style of play requires you to spend the majority of your time in combat with targets that have such resistances. Oh wait, you mean there isn't a map that contains nothing but rare and unique mobs?

Fire pen = more damage, but only against mobs with high enough resist

Controlled destruction = more damage across the board including mobs with higher than normal resist

I don't face bosses that survive longer than 10 seconds using CD. Means nothing to me to cut off a few seconds when my clear speed blows yours away because I'm one shotting everything else. But again, if you don't plan to level as high as me, then so be it. My build is the way it is to fit the xp and loot grinding I'm doing. I already killed all four guardians and shaper himself without ever using fire pen and I have no use for running those maps again any time soon. It's not efficient to do that content when you're #1 priority is leveling. If you care to get to my level maybe it would make more sense to you.

Only non-map content I run is blasting through Uber lab to roll for flame golem dmg enchant on a backup helm as an upgrade to my existing enchant:



The very fact that I have the existing enchant means I experience even more diminishing returns if I went fire pen.

And Uber lab is a joke at level 95. I have to actually nerf or completely remove my golems half the time to stop them from ruining the challenges and costing me keys.

Elemental penetration is one of the most misunderstood mechanics in POE. People put far too much weight on it because they obsess over bosses when 99% of the content are not bosses and of all builds, this matters the least because if your intention is to kill a boss while dead, how much value is it really if both you and I can kill the boss but you can do it a few seconds faster than me? In the time you saved killing the boss I saved ten times that amount getting to it.

I am not trying to prove your point nor i do approve it.
I would strongly recommend new golementalists to not use it.
Whats ur plan to do with that helmet? Curse only 7 monsters with it? while gaining lesser es... Only thing that you benefit from that helmet is that enchant and curse duration..
Your setup gives up so much to gain so little damage. Original version of this build lacks defence not the damage.
I urge you to try uber atziri with ur build. Oh wait u did not even kill shaper? Oh sry..
U know what, i did do a shaper run with a tabula rasa.

Jesus christ.

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Kill any of the Shaper's Guardians (1/40)
Kill Atziri, Queen of the Vaal (0/100)
Kill Izaro in the Endgame Labyrinth (2/100)
Kill any Breachlord (0/100)
Kill a member of the Pale Council (0/400)
Kill Rigwald, the Wolven King (0/50)

Dude do u even play this game?

Who are you to teach me how to play this build? Let me know when you kill some bosses. Not the map bosses the endgame grinds.. Why did i even bother to argue with u?