The worst piece of content I've ever seen in any game

So...more/harder monsters in the traps. Got it.

You don't have to explain why you don't like traps. I was replying to those arguments that say traps don't belong in an arpg according to some non existent rulebook.

"

mark1030 wrote:

So...more/harder monsters in the traps. Got it.

Monsters WITH traps. Traps as an extra difficulty layer (though more harder monsters would be much welcome too) when fighting the monsters. A very good example what I would like to see and think it would perfectly fit was one of the races, can't remember the name but there were those bleed, flask traps everywhere.

"

You don't have to explain why you don't like traps. I was replying to those arguments that say traps don't belong in an arpg according to some non existent rulebook.

I was hoping to explain the point of view many of us "lab haters" share. Saying that something doesnt belong somewhere where it comes to games and trying to box it into some artificial type is, indeed, silly and I strongly disagree with people preaching it.

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The_Reporter wrote:

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Emphasy wrote:

"

So, the question is why force something so boring, annoying and non-challenging into a video game? It's bizarre.

Here is the issue. Your statement is essentially just as true if we speak about the first few map tiers or essentially the whole first difficulty.

It's not the same.

The first few map tiers and the first difficulty are fun for normal minded players who aren't using PoE as a job replacement activity.

Boring for the 1%ers? Certainly. But the annoyance level for the normal (majority) is FAR less than that of lab & trials.

and this is what I mean when I decry the casualization in niche games

people who think its the norm for their games to be played for half an hour and given shit in that half an hour (aka instant gratification) just like a tv show

this is akin coming to a gay bar, liking the decor and drinks and saying, hmm I kinda like this, but we need to make it a straight bar so the MAJORITY can enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VgB3bqTkXc

what is this ? a gauntlet without many monsters in an arpg game ?



what is this ? this was more than 15 years ago and yet seems so strikingly familiar ?

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grepman wrote:

"

The_Reporter wrote:

It's not the same.

The first few map tiers and the first difficulty are fun for normal minded players who aren't using PoE as a job replacement activity.

Boring for the 1%ers? Certainly. But the annoyance level for the normal (majority) is FAR less than that of lab & trials.

and this is what I mean when I decry the casualization in niche games

people who think its the norm for their games to be played for half an hour and given shit in that half an hour (aka instant gratification) just like a tv show

this is akin coming to a gay bar, liking the decor and drinks and saying, hmm I kinda like this, but we need to make it a straight bar so the MAJORITY can enjoy it.

What are you even saying man?

People have shown they are happy to spend hours grinding maps, but hate Lab - so your notions of "casualization in niche games" (??) and "instant gratification" actually has nothing to do with this. This isn't Psych class man:

a) people did not come to PoE to play puzzles. This is not a donkey kong puzzle game, this is an ARPG. So why are we suddenly being forced to do puzzles? If I was looking to spend my free time on Mario dungeon puzzles I will be playing a different game

b) people are frustrated with the lack of checkpoints. Where a single disconnect erases your whole progress

c) people are tired of having to do trials and lab for EVERY new character, EVERY new league

d) enchants are not enticing enough


That's it. All these 200+ threads complaining about lab are just saying these 4 points over and over again.


Also I haven't been to a gay bar but your analogy makes zero sense with what you are trying to say. In fact it should be the opposite.

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Ceryneian wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

"

The_Reporter wrote:

It's not the same.

The first few map tiers and the first difficulty are fun for normal minded players who aren't using PoE as a job replacement activity.

Boring for the 1%ers? Certainly. But the annoyance level for the normal (majority) is FAR less than that of lab & trials.

and this is what I mean when I decry the casualization in niche games

people who think its the norm for their games to be played for half an hour and given shit in that half an hour (aka instant gratification) just like a tv show

this is akin coming to a gay bar, liking the decor and drinks and saying, hmm I kinda like this, but we need to make it a straight bar so the MAJORITY can enjoy it.

What are you even saying man?

People have shown they are happy to spend hours grinding maps, but hate Lab - so your notions of "casualization in niche games" (??) and "instant gratification" actually has nothing to do with this. This isn't Psych class man:

a) people did not come to PoE to play puzzles. This is not a donkey kong puzzle game, this is an ARPG. So why are we suddenly being forced to do puzzles? If I was looking to spend my free time on Mario dungeon puzzles I will be playing a different game

b) people are frustrated with the lack of checkpoints. Where a single disconnect erases your whole progress

c) people are tired of having to do trials and lab for EVERY new character, EVERY new league

d) enchants are not enticing enough


That's it. All these 200+ threads complaining about lab are just saying these 4 points over and over again.


Also I haven't been to a gay bar but your analogy makes zero sense with what you are trying to say. In fact it should be the opposite.

maybe you should read the post Ive replied to, so it becomes more clear

here, let me requote this

"The first few map tiers and the first difficulty are fun for normal minded players who aren't using PoE as a job replacement activity."

this quote implies that majority and 'normal minded' players dont consider easy shit such as normal game and low tier maps, as trivial.

this game was initially advertised as a niche game intended for hardcore audience, not for audience that is 'normal minded' (note the indirect jab- casual gaming is considered 'normal-minded', reducing gaming to a dumb small entertainment session and not problem solving)

"but the annoyance level for the normal (majority)"

this statement screams normal = majority, so if youre non-major (non-casual), youre not normal.

go ahead and tell me where Im wrong.

casual gamers barging into a niche game and feeling entitled to dictate how the niche game should be played, is egregious to me, and I will always attack that

you dont see casual math students diving into topology discussion, do you ? Im arguing casual gamer shouldnt venture in a niche game entitled to gameplay which he is familiar with, and if he chooses to do so, he should not try to change the niche game to fit to his vision but simply accept that its a niche game.

does the gay bar analogy seem clear now ? let the gay people have their only bar in town.

"

a) people did not come to PoE to play puzzles. This is not a donkey kong puzzle game, this is an ARPG. So why are we suddenly being forced to do puzzles? If I was looking to spend my free time on Mario dungeon puzzles I will be playing a different game

stop generalizing. you dont know what people come to play poe for. speak for yourself only. the more you generalize and try to speak for others to justify your point, the weaker your point becomes.

puzzles and traps and gauntlets have been present in multiple arpgs over the years. this is a FACT that you cannot possible prove false. if your concept of arpgs only encompasses like 3 arpgs, it doesnt make your statement any more true, sorry. nor am I interested in your vision of what ARPGs should be like.

"

b) people are frustrated with the lack of checkpoints. Where a single disconnect erases your whole progress

checkpoints are optional in any game. many niche games have a failure state in which your checkpoints reset. the lab is so laughable that the checkpoint loss is hilarious as an argument of why lab sucks. poe isnt the only arpg that has the concept of a one-access dungeon.

many games that are non-casual require you to replay the entire level, which might be as much as an hour to several hours of gameplay. and they dont let you save/load spam.

if it was up to me, Id make the lab twice as longer and always random on every entry. and remove maps from it. now it would be an actual 'labyrinth' that you actually need to traverse blind. place some dangers randomly in there like invasion bosses with random mods so it becomes actually scary

Some times, I think, money corrupts and people get greedy.
No offence, but that's what I think in the moment about PoE game play and design!
There is no balance in this game...

Just my 2cent to the OP... (and I agree!)

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grepman wrote:

this is akin coming to a gay bar, liking the decor and drinks and saying, hmm I kinda like this, but we need to make it a straight bar so the MAJORITY can enjoy it.

Worst possible analogy you could make, or you simply dont know what you are talking about or you dont know what analogies are. Ill include the gay bar example to make it clearer.


If poe is the gay bar in your analogy the labyrinth is like the owner of the club enters and says : "From now on you will all first must have a heterosexual relationship and then you can enjoy the gay bar"

If poe is the straight bar, lab is the club owner who says : "you all need to go down on same sex people before entering this straight bar here"


To make it even more easy to unterstand : PoE is an argp game. Every single poe expansion added power and content than never gated character progression. Then comes the lab that not only gated character progression but put said progression options behind A TOTALLY NEW GAMEPLAY to PoE.


Can you people undestand how this is a bad design idea and implementation? Having a stable playerbase that got into the game because its a fucking ARPG and then punish them by implemnting something so alienating? Is it that hard? The fact that its so divisive alone should tell you that design and implmentation-wise this was the worst possible idea GGG could have. Its a huge FUCK YOU from GGG to every single one.

People must be really thick to not see or understand simple things like that. When the devs say lab introduces roguelike elements that are completely new to poe, when devs say lab is not in any way similar or optional like Atziri or other expansions, when devs say they wanted to try a new direction, and still you all magically forget all of this and believe what your doodoobrain tells you. "yo lab is optional, yo its the same game still, yo dont do it if you dont like, yo gid gud". Bunch of fucking arrogant egotistical wannabes.

For fucks shake some things are some and some things arent : Lab is not what poe used to be and lured us in. Lab is not optional. Lab is an arcade/run and jump simulator inside an ARPG.

PoE is an ARPG. Consecutive trap gauntlets that ignore 80% of our character choices in an ARPG is by definition not, its a fucking arcade design. 1chance, character choices negated/useless or irrelevant, running and jumping around. Reminds you of anything? Maybe frogger? maybe mario? Contra? Metal Slug?


And since you all are so mighty and sure why not a single soul can asnwer this ? How any addition/change/rework in the ascencion method - while keeping it as an option also in the labyrinth - will have any negative effect in anyone's gameplay/personal experience?


We would be more than content if we didnt have to do the lab aka platformer silliness for MANDANTORY CHARACTER PROGRESSION OPTIONS IN A FUCKING ARPG, whats your problem ? You could still enjoy this content as you do now, so whats the deal? You fucking hypocrites, what if Atziri and Uber Atziri gated ascendancy points? How would you feel to HAVE TO DO "OPTIONAL" content, that by the looks of it 3/4 pro-lab player havent done ever. And haave in mind Atziri doesnt introduce arcade stupid playstyle. How would you feel if PVP gated ascendancy points ? How would you feel if they implemented rhoa-racing that gated ascendancy points?

The fact that you cant do the analogies in your head or see things as truly are doesnt mean they are not there. And GGG with your guilty concience still not a word or a development manifesto on the lab issues we are presenting for so long. At least say we wanted to try to win the platformer game of the year when ascnedancy came out and be done with it, dont bullshit us that WE THE VETERANS AND VOCAL PLAYERS MEAN SOOOOO MUCH TO YOU. (4:16 for the question from PT, 4:46 for the answer from Chris)

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Regulator wrote:

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grepman wrote:

this is akin coming to a gay bar, liking the decor and drinks and saying, hmm I kinda like this, but we need to make it a straight bar so the MAJORITY can enjoy it.

Worst possible analogy you could make, or you simply dont know what you are talking about or you dont know what analogies are. Ill include the gay bar example to make it clearer.

I didnt make gay bar analogy with the labyrinth. read again. I made it with the niche game vs casual gamer analogy, where casual gamers want niche games to cater to their needs because of some dumb entitlement.

it had pretty much nothing to do with the labyrinth too

perhaps investing time in reading comprehension would be a good idea.