Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Nugiyen changing builds is an indicator. This is something you need to grasp fully.

P.S. the game is boring past 80, don't sweat dying in the 80s. I don't even level my softcore chars to 90.

No it isn't, he said yesterday on stream that he regreted respecing the dreamfeather ranger.
He is destroying everything with the low life version of his Necromancer tho.

Idk how Dan and Ninjagod died, I guess their rip are/will be easy to see, they are still top ladder for now, until other BF chars make it through.

Etup being a streamer or not has no relevance here, he is the second alive and started this char much later ( because ripped the first one ) than many other, still he is level 98, he can make it #1.
He could not have done it without a (very) strong skill.

Fact is it's a decision that happened.

And yeah, ETUP. The dude is smart enough, supported enough, and puts in enough time to literally play with a glass shank to 100 and still be on the top. AND he still died. Just think of where ETUP could be if he had played flameblast.

It's very relevant that right now I can't find anyone in the top 50 still alive with BF on their original character, INCLUDING etup and nguyen. It IS relevant because of the amount of time they put into the game, it's LITERALLY their job.

Keep in mind this is a skill gem that was JUST released and that everyone thought was insanely OP.

Would you stop with the bad faith for a second please ?

He has 11k+ ES solo, wearing a shield of course, basically as tanky as the pizza stickers in there, except on top of that he can outleech and choose his targets quicker.

He would die the same to bearers / DD / volatile ( positioning mistake in all cases, DD is more debatable depending on the cases tho ).
The same.
This is nothing like a glass build.

He died to DD the first time because he messed up.
I'm curious to what you will have to say if he hits 100 first, which is pretty likely at this point.

Where he could have been with a flameblast build ?
He could be dead, or just lower level, how did Xai succeed about this ?
This is just completely irrelevant at this point.


Nugiyen rerolled because he wanted to try a necro to use headhunter and scourge, that's called rerolling, you are - apparently - getting bored before 90 and you allow yourself to judge others like this ?
.............
Zizaran riped at least 3 times on caster builds already, what should we say then ? that vaal spark / discharge isn't strong ?


The gem was pretty OP, probably not as the double dipping mechanics and builds that can abuse it ( BF can abuse it too tho ), but that isn't exactly the point here.

And many profiles are still private, by the way.

You're acting like I don't agree with you about the non-glass part, but I do agree with you. It just isn't reflecting as a relevant point in the data.

Why are there no bows in top 50? There's one guy using ROA and that's it, and ROA could just as easily be done on an ES build. You need to think outside the box and realize what's going on.

The facts are what they are, all the BF guys are either dead or rerolled and I don't believe in coincidence. This stuff happens for a reason. I believe it's simply because BF is an attack skill and not a spell or summon.

And really, I actually predicted there would be a streamer up there using BF. I called that on like page 20 of this thread. It's obvious that if ETUP wants to get first with BF he will do it, it doesn't matter how the gem is. You can't look at that leaderboard and tell me ETUP would not do better with FB.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Nugiyen changing builds is an indicator. This is something you need to grasp fully.

P.S. the game is boring past 80, don't sweat dying in the 80s. I don't even level my softcore chars to 90.

No it isn't, he said yesterday on stream that he regreted respecing the dreamfeather ranger.
He is destroying everything with the low life version of his Necromancer tho.

Idk how Dan and Ninjagod died, I guess their rip are/will be easy to see, they are still top ladder for now, until other BF chars make it through.

Etup being a streamer or not has no relevance here, he is the second alive and started this char much later ( because ripped the first one ) than many other, still he is level 98, he can make it #1.
He could not have done it without a (very) strong skill.

Etup made it to #1 with Cyclone even though Cyclone wasn't even the best skill at the time, it was merely better than every other melee skill.


Balde Flurry is not that good. It's good, but it's not a tier 1 skill like Flameblast. With as much investment Nugiyen has on his LL Scourge Blade Flurry character, it's not impressive at all. Etup's blade flurry character clears much faster, granted he also has a HH and will probably scale his damage better if he can ever roll a better dagger. Even then, someone who has less gear than Etup clears maps faster with Flameblast Totems due to double AoE, he just excels at boss/rare killing (where Flameblast is still really damn good at).

"

allbusiness wrote:

Etup made it to #1 with Cyclone even though Cyclone wasn't even the best skill at the time, it was merely better than every other melee skill.


Balde Flurry is not that good. It's good, but it's not a tier 1 skill like Flameblast. With as much investment Nugiyen has on his LL Scourge Blade Flurry character, it's not impressive at all. Etup's blade flurry character clears much faster, granted he also has a HH and will probably scale his damage better if he can ever roll a better dagger. Even then, someone who has less gear than Etup clears maps faster with Flameblast Totems due to double AoE, he just excels at boss/rare killing (where Flameblast is still really damn good at).

Agreed w/ all this.

Thing is Fruz is kinda not wrong in the sense that FB is OP and original BF might have been also.

Problem I have with his argument is that FB didn't get nerfed, and I knew something like this was going to be the outcome. I CALLED it like 30 pages ago, a week before the new league started. It was extremely obvious because GGG does this shit every time, anything that isn't a spell and is able to do content gets nerfed and 60% of all melee gems are useless trash, meanwhile their assorted nerfs and buffs always result in an OP spell (if not several). Spark, flameblast, and blade vortex have basically all been top tier skills since they were introduced. Sometimes a nerf happens and one is pushed aside for another but none of them have ever been bad.

IDK man. I never planned to use BF and I still won't because I just don't like anything about it and it isn't good enough to justify building around it IMO, and I can't agree to the logic that brought the nerf down on it.

"

allbusiness wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Nugiyen changing builds is an indicator. This is something you need to grasp fully.

P.S. the game is boring past 80, don't sweat dying in the 80s. I don't even level my softcore chars to 90.

No it isn't, he said yesterday on stream that he regreted respecing the dreamfeather ranger.
He is destroying everything with the low life version of his Necromancer tho.

Idk how Dan and Ninjagod died, I guess their rip are/will be easy to see, they are still top ladder for now, until other BF chars make it through.

Etup being a streamer or not has no relevance here, he is the second alive and started this char much later ( because ripped the first one ) than many other, still he is level 98, he can make it #1.
He could not have done it without a (very) strong skill.

Etup made it to #1 with Cyclone even though Cyclone wasn't even the best skill at the time, it was merely better than every other melee skill.


Balde Flurry is not that good. It's good, but it's not a tier 1 skill like Flameblast. With as much investment Nugiyen has on his LL Scourge Blade Flurry character, it's not impressive at all. Etup's blade flurry character clears much faster, granted he also has a HH and will probably scale his damage better if he can ever roll a better dagger. Even then, someone who has less gear than Etup clears maps faster with Flameblast Totems due to double AoE, he just excels at boss/rare killing (where Flameblast is still really damn good at).

When was that ? I have not followed the old ladders, because if it was back at a time with low competition ( and back when melees were in a much better place ), then it's already qutie different.
( Also one could argue that cyclone with cospri and shield charge is stil very very strong, but I guess you are speaking of pure cycloner ).
I think that there is a cycloner in the top 100 at the moment, I saw some guy using the breach 2 hander weapon, you can still be pretty fast I guess.

And Nugiyen didn't have that much investment to start with on the dreamfeather pathfinder.
About the Scourge BF Necro, he definitely wanted to try it out more than race the ladder, imho.

I'm not sure about pizza sticks clearspeed overall ( including bosses ), it's pretty fast, but which one is faster .... I'm honestly not sure, Etup clears really fast too.
And if FB is faster, how much of a difference ?
I was following the ladder yesterday night, checking the xp at regular interval to see if Etup would catch up, and it seemed really similar in term of speed.


That said, FB is definitely OP, the double dipping is just too much, and the interaction with spell totem is dumb imho, it's ridiculous, why it hasn't been nerf .... is beyond me.

If you consider T1 as the OP skills ( flameblast, maybe still blade vortex too ? and vaal spark also for example, whispering ice maybe also ), then I would agree that blade flurry isn't T1 anymore.
It was crossing this line before imho, but not now.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Agreed w/ all this.

Thing is Fruz is kinda not wrong in the sense that FB is OP and original BF might have been also.

Problem I have with his argument is that FB didn't get nerfed, and I knew something like this was going to be the outcome. I CALLED it like 30 pages ago, a week before the new league started. It was extremely obvious because GGG does this shit every time, anything that isn't a spell and is able to do content gets nerfed and 60% of all melee gems are useless trash, meanwhile their assorted nerfs and buffs always result in an OP spell (if not several). Spark, flameblast, and blade vortex have basically all been top tier skills since they were introduced. Sometimes a nerf happens and one is pushed aside for another but none of them have ever been bad.

IDK man. I never planned to use BF and I still won't because I just don't like anything about it and it isn't good enough to justify building around it IMO, and I can't agree to the logic that brought the nerf down on it.

I don't know what is GGG's stance on spells, I honestly don't, and I find it ridiculous too, we can agree on that I guess.

Now, they are planning to apply to chances to melee in 3.0.0, so knowing that .... it would probably be better for them to make sure than blade flurry isn't too strong, so that they don't need to nerf it in 3.0.0 when they do their changes ( or not too much ).
Of course we don't know exactly what their plan is.

I really hope that they are planning to address double dipping at some point, why it has not happened yet is kinda baffling to me.

Etup couldn't even do hard red maps on his cyclone character and required Havoc to carry him with his CA character back when CA was overpowered as shit. Getting #1 has nothing to do with the skill you are using, it has to do with who you are playing with, how you play the economy, etc.

"

allbusiness wrote:

Etup couldn't even do hard red maps on his cyclone character and required Havoc to carry him with his CA character back when CA was overpowered as shit. Getting #1 has nothing to do with the skill you are using, it has to do with who you are playing with, how you play the economy, etc.

Then Nugiyen playing solo with a pretty cheap build, reaching the top 10~20 and sustaining it ( if not progressing through it ) until he rerolled should be a good enough example of how strong the skill is, because in this case, it definitely matters.

Etup is playing with a support at the moment, but he is the one carrying, not the other way around, and as I said in the previous post ... xp gains were about similar yesterday.
Now is the current #1 pizza sticker solo or group ? I don't know.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

allbusiness wrote:

Etup couldn't even do hard red maps on his cyclone character and required Havoc to carry him with his CA character back when CA was overpowered as shit. Getting #1 has nothing to do with the skill you are using, it has to do with who you are playing with, how you play the economy, etc.

Then Nugiyen playing solo with a pretty cheap build, reaching the top 10~20 and sustaining it ( if not progressing through it ) until he rerolled should be a good enough example of how strong the skill is, because in this case, it definitely matters.

Etup is playing with a support at the moment, but he is the one carrying, not the other way around, and as I said in the previous post ... xp gains were about similar yesterday.
Now is the current #1 pizza sticker solo or group ? I don't know.

Etup only caught up because Havoc was blowing up maps for him as Vaal Spark. Even though Etup was clearing fast, he still needed to clear maps even faster to catch #1.



Nuigyen's build is not 'cheap' by any stretch of the imagination for a league starter. It's cheap relative to an ES build, but it's still not cheap as it requires very specific gear combinations that are not available at a league start. I don't know why you keep arguing this, Pizza Sticks broke 90+ with shit tier rares.

Not to mention Nuigyen's build didn't rely on Blade Flurry, it relied on poison double dipping.