Labyrinth for returning player

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goetzjam wrote:

If players can do the trials before the lab, then they can do the lab itself in normal as well.

You can refill flasks in town during trials. And you can just die and try again/continue in SC. Trials can be "brute force completed" with RIP spam and/or flask spam that way. You cant do that in the lab. So yes for anybody who is bad at traps and figures that out: Lab is much harder than trials.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

If players can do the trials before the lab, then they can do the lab itself in normal as well.

You can refill flasks in town during trials. And you can just die and try again/continue in SC. Trials can be "brute force completed" with RIP spam and/or flask spam that way. You cant do that in the lab. So yes for anybody who is bad at traps and figures that out: Lab is much harder than trials.

The trials are there to introduce you into the traps that will be in the lab. If you are zerging them down, you aren't learning the pattern or how to deal with it. It isn't even that complicated either.


So I guess I need to rephrase that, if you can do the trials, without death, you can do the lab as well, better?

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sofocle10000 wrote:

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Moshe_of_Succubus wrote:

a careful player can run uber lab in 30 minutes, how much time is spent looking atziri set? how many times you kill atiziri to win mortal? how much time people spend on the end of the game rolling your favorite maps?

I hate the cruel difficulty, but I need do and enjoy the best part of the game, no one can go through cruel in 30 minutes, sorry but I do not understand the complaints about the lab

I do not like many maps in the game, in any RPG works like this, you do what you like, when you can not avoid to do what you hate, you know it's for a short time

how long can you get to level 40? how long can you do the lab in normal? (10 min? or 15 min?) I can not understand people complaining about the lab, some people say its not action rpg, these same people repeat 3 times 4 very boring acts to finally reach the end of the game

can u see the problem? I dont, sorry

I hope that u start think like me, its for a short time, its nothing

Why should we play something that we find it's boring and tedious ant ultimately NOT FUN?

That's how I feel everytime I level a char through cruel. That's the point Moshe made that you seem to have ignored.

Sometimes I argue to remove cruel altogether but you don't see me raging on and on about it or even "uninstalling" the game. It's just a few hours per char that I'll play 100s of hours afterwards.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

If players can do the trials before the lab, then they can do the lab itself in normal as well.

You can refill flasks in town during trials. And you can just die and try again/continue in SC. Trials can be "brute force completed" with RIP spam and/or flask spam that way. You cant do that in the lab. So yes for anybody who is bad at traps and figures that out: Lab is much harder than trials.

The trials are there to introduce you into the traps that will be in the lab. If you are zerging them down, you aren't learning the pattern or how to deal with it. It isn't even that complicated either.

So I guess I need to rephrase that, if you can do the trials, without death, you can do the lab as well, better?

Isnt it also possible to just let somebody else make a portal at the end of the trial? That way one could completely skip the trials.

Anyway: I disagree with your previous claim that completing the trials implies ability to complete the labyrinth. So I gave an example to showcase my critque. I did not intend to critizise your wording.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Isnt it also possible to just let somebody else make a portal at the end of the trial? That way one could completely skip the trials.

Anyway: I disagree with your previous claim that completing the trials implies ability to complete the labyrinth. So I gave an example to showcase my critque. I did not intend to critizise your wording.

Correct, for the regular trials someone can just TP you in at the end, but if they have already done the trials as well, chances are you are also getting rushed in the lab as well.



The trials are there to show you how the traps work, patterns, damage, ect. Failing to do them on your own or learning anything from them at this point is mainly player error, especially when you suggest people just zerg em down.

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Siochan wrote:

You're not alone. Many, many people hate the lab and think it's an incredibly stupid idea to put core ARPG character development behind frogger trap gameplay.

Whoooot? Many? No way, we are only a vocal minority!

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666lol666 wrote:

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Siochan wrote:

You're not alone. Many, many people hate the lab and think it's an incredibly stupid idea to put core ARPG character development behind frogger trap gameplay.

Whoooot? Many? No way, we are only a vocal minority!

Since no one has answered my question in other threads, what are you going to do if they make no changes to the way to get AC points in 2.4?

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goetzjam wrote:

The trials are there to show you how the traps work, patterns, damage, ect. Failing to do them on your own or learning anything from them at this point is mainly player error, especially when you suggest people just zerg em down.

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. However from my understanding of human nature, reading forum posts, etc: There are many SC players who "zerg" difficult parts in the game if they can get away with it. In no way do I argue that this is "the right way" to play the game. However if the game allows it then I am "tolerant" towards such behaviour. At the very least I acknowledge its existence.

So I completely disagree with your attitude. Your line of arguing gives me the following impression: Its player error, its the players "fault". Therefore the player is wrong. So the lab is ok.

My attitude here is different. I do not try to find a "fault" or "error" in the casual player. I do not expect casual players to systematically learn content. They play SC for a reason. To be able to continue at the point of death. To have fun playing the game. The lab is a major change here. Basically the game got a lot more difficult for casual players - if they want to do the labyrinth. But at the same time a lot easier for more competent/experienced/whatever players. IMO this is exactly the wrong approach. I see nothing wrong with having an easy mode for casuals. But I dislike the ongoing massive power creep at higher levels of play.

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Zrevnur wrote:

I see nothing wrong with having an easy mode for casuals.

This game wasn't designed for causal players, that is fundamentally what is wrong here, sacrificing or suggesting the sacrifice of game design because the lowest man on the totem pole suffers.


GGG needs to stick with what got them started, appealing to a more difficult to get into, learn, play, slower paced ARPG game that was fun, not just open the doors up and move that line closer and closer to D3.


D3 is a fine game, its enjoyment however isn't long. Poe was pretty damn close to D3 levels in perandus, lets hope it never gets that close again.

In terms of "easy mode' SC isn't easy mode, its just not perm death. Its the same content as hardcore, just less punishing as in you don't lose your character on death. You shouldn't just be able to pick up exactly where you were and have the game hold your hand, that change was unnecessary and a clear indication that they somehow think SC is intended just for "casual" players, it isn't its there for anyone that wants to play the game, just doesn't or might not want to lose their character after one death or mistake.


This whole "blah blah" needs changed because of causal players arrangements need to stop. This game didn't become successful because it appealed to casual players.

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goetzjam wrote:

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666lol666 wrote:

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Siochan wrote:

You're not alone. Many, many people hate the lab and think it's an incredibly stupid idea to put core ARPG character development behind frogger trap gameplay.

Whoooot? Many? No way, we are only a vocal minority!

Since no one has answered my question in other threads, what are you going to do if they make no changes to the way to get AC points in 2.4?

They wont comeback, my flist has taken a big hit since the lab was introduced. Doesnt bother me because i play solo but people would rather play another game than play one with the lab in it. At least thats what they tell me.

The lab is just poorly designed. The chants are fine, but the points need to be put behind malachai.

People arent invested into poe like you are, I think people forget this often when defending the lab. Its done more damage to the game than good