Minority, and a Plea.

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Prebornfetus wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

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Prebornfetus wrote:

You dont get to where we are at if most ppl like the lab.

Where we are at? You mean the same 15 or so people spamming lab treads all the time?

Log the authors of all the lab posts and see how many different ones there are. There are many ppl that only ever made one thread. Go ahead go thru them all. Its alot more than 15. Ill be here waiting.

182 accounts have posted feedback regarding the laby. 28 of those accounts are responsible for 65 of the 222 threads listed in this thread.

And if you go through all those threads, which I have, you'll find that 75%+ of them are just "lab sucks" or QQ in another form. Don't get me wrong but there is some good feedback in there, it's not totally a sea of QQ but it's pretty damn close.

Laby isn't broken (aside from the domains walkways dc issue), the players are...

Edit for clarity: These numbers only represent the negative feedback that has been tracked down by Turtledove.

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Thieldan wrote:

I don't think the lab is gonna kill the game, but there has never been content that divided the community as much before. And this can't be a good sign.

Chris said "It's ok to have divisive content in the game", that sounds like crazy talk to me, if the game was built around divisive content, it would be a failure, add more divisive content and you'll get there someday.

I think GGG at least has learned from the lab experience, since Atlas of the Worlds is entirely optional for people who like the old way doing the maps. I just hope they do the same for the lab (2 ways to get AC points: through the current lab and through an alternative way, which is more in line with the classic gameplay).

Divisive Content is only acceptable in a game like PoE if it's entirely optional, since players can decide if they want to play that content or not. but thanks to the AC points, they messed up and really devided the community at least partly. Now think about it: What can ultimatively happen when they would keep going that route?

For example:

- They had free4all loo in the past, forced upon the players. Part of the community was devided into free4all lovers and free4all haters. free4all haters are unsatisfied

- They implemented lab and forced it upon the players. Part of the community gets devided into lab haters and lab lovers. Lab haters are unsatisfied

- They implement Atlas of the Worlds and force it upon the players. Part of the community gets devided into atlas haters and atlas lovers. Atlas haters are unsatisfied.


Now imagine GGG would implement more and more deviding stuff. Everytime a group is unsatisfied, there's alot of potential for leavers. I'm not even talking about permanent leavers. I'm also talking about people who enter a league and leave it after some days or a week because of boredom.

The more deviding content there is, the more and more people will be unsatisfied in the long run when GGG doesn't provide an alternative or optional way for these issues. I just wonder why GGG persists on not changing the lab (giving an alternative way to get AC points), while they gave perm allocation loot and optional Atlas of the Worlds.

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AceNightfire wrote:

I just wonder why GGG persists on not changing the lab (giving an alternative way to get AC points), while they gave perm allocation loot and optional Atlas of the Worlds.

Because without playing perm alloc you're shoehorning yourself into certain builds if you want to be competitive in getting loot. Some skills/builds lock you into place so long there is no chance of ever getting any decent loot if you're playing in a FFA party. It's frustrating to say the least, and a completely different beast. These scenarios shouldn't be compared at all.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Prebornfetus wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

Where we are at? You mean the same 15 or so people spamming lab treads all the time?

Log the authors of all the lab posts and see how many different ones there are. There are many ppl that only ever made one thread. Go ahead go thru them all. Its alot more than 15. Ill be here waiting.

182 accounts have posted feedback regarding the laby. 28 of those accounts are responsible for 65 of the 222 threads listed in this thread.

And if you go through all those threads, which I have, you'll find that 75%+ of them are just "lab sucks" or QQ in another form. Don't get me wrong but there is some good feedback in there, it's not totally a sea of QQ but it's pretty damn close.

Laby isn't broken (aside from the domains walkways dc issue), the players are...

Edit for clarity: These numbers only represent the negative feedback that has been tracked down by Turtledove.

So 28 of those accounts created 65 threads (which is a little bit more then 2 threads per person). On the other side, that means 157 threads are created by other accounts who only have opened one thread. And 157 is pretty impressive in my opinion. There is no content is PoE that has achieved so much negative attention and got so much negative feedback then the lab.

And even if 75% of the posts are QQ/lab sucks, that still shows, that people just dont enjoy this content. Be it that it is to hard or that it is just boring for them. It just shows that something is not right. And since GGG clearly said that they dont want to alienate players (when they introduced atlas of the worlds) I guess it's in their interest to not devide the playerbase. And they do exactly that with the lab, which is proven by the sheer amount of feedback about lab.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

I just wonder why GGG persists on not changing the lab (giving an alternative way to get AC points), while they gave perm allocation loot and optional Atlas of the Worlds.

Because without playing perm alloc you're shoehorning yourself into certain builds if you want to be competitive in getting loot. Some skills/builds lock you into place so long there is no chance of ever getting any decent loot if you're playing in a FFA party. It's frustrating to say the least, and a completely different beast. These scenarios shouldn't be compared at all.

And why did they choose to make Atlas of the World optional then?

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AceNightfire wrote:

And 157 is pretty impressive in my opinion.

157 isn't even a half of a percent of the playerbase...
To each his own I suppose.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

I just wonder why GGG persists on not changing the lab (giving an alternative way to get AC points), while they gave perm allocation loot and optional Atlas of the Worlds.

Because without playing perm alloc you're shoehorning yourself into certain builds if you want to be competitive in getting loot. Some skills/builds lock you into place so long there is no chance of ever getting any decent loot if you're playing in a FFA party. It's frustrating to say the least, and a completely different beast. These scenarios shouldn't be compared at all.

And why did they choose to make Atlas of the World optional then?

So you can map like normal if you're not interested in the new content I guess. I don't see why AoW even comes into the convo, maybe it's too late here and I've had a bit too much rum to make the connection. :)

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Shovelcut wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

And 157 is pretty impressive in my opinion.

157 isn't even a half of a percent of the playerbase...
To each his own I suppose.

That's not how it works shovel, you know that. Not every player who is (un-)satisfied is vocal on the forums. But you can generalize from the numbers on the forum to the poe population. That's how polls work for example. You ask a certain number of people about their opinion and generalize the results to the population. And over 180 vocal people who gave negative feedback is pretty impressive for a game with such a low playerbase. You can easily generalize these numbers to the population and realize, that many are unhappy with the content.

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Shovelcut wrote:

So you can map like normal if you're not interested in the new content I guess. I don't see why AoW even comes into the convo, maybe it's too late here and I've had a bit too much rum to make the connection. :)

Then they should have added an alternative way to get AC points too, because there are people who are not interested in the lab gameplay. :P

Atlas is optional because people have millions of maps sitting around and you can't fit a square peg into a round hole. People don't like their accumulated items getting deleted so they had to make it backwards compatible. Not the first time they've changed maps. I still have stash tabs full of the old maps.

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AceNightfire wrote:

Then they should have added an alternative way to get AC points too, because there are people who are not interested in the lab gameplay. :P

They should also give an alternative way to get quests rewards because there a people who are not interested in doing quests.

I think the best point that experienced gamers and the Devs themselves can take from all of this is that divisive content is not actually a good business model. It incentivises players who don't enjoy the content to play only sporadically, which is part of why you see such high numbers at league starts, and then so much dropoff. Players are seeing if anything changed, if they like new features, etc, then they get bored, take a break, check back next league. Part of that is likely normal league burnout, and will never change, but part of that is the things that people hate not getting fixed, so they don't bother to keep playing.

Another factor is still bad press. Much of the only bad press I'd heard about this game before getting into it much myself revolved around the Lab. Most of it now that I've been playing for a couple months still centers around the Lab. Much of my own negative feedback about the game is also about the Lab. Now to be clear, I don't find the content of the Lab too difficult. I've cleared through Merc Lab on a couple builds, know how to do it, know how to survive it, and yet still do not particularly find it fun nor engaging content. It bores me, I don't enjoy being stuck in any area of any game without the ability to leave until finished, and I abso-freaking-lutely despise mazes in all forms. Traps are kind of a nuisance, but to me, they're easily avoidable, minus game performance issues where sudden FPS or lag spikes can get you killed(but I've accepted that POE is just that kind of game, where you will die to performance issues).

My point is this, in summary - Yes, some people like the Lab, some hate it, and many others are ambivalent. GGG are not making the next new endgame content mandatory. To me, this shows that they realize that at least some part of the Lab or the way it was handled was unsuccessful. To me, it's as close to an admission that "we like divisive content" was an idiotic statement as we are likely to ever get, so I'll take it. I'd also guess we'll see some changes to the way Ascendancy points and the Lab work in the near future, because why admit you were wrong on one hand by not making the same mistake twice, yet not fix the first mistake?

I'm willing to wait and see, and hope for the best. I'm one of the guys who will play either way, because I'm willing to do one thing I hate in a game in order to do a bunch of other stuff I enjoy(and I think that's a large chunk of the playerbase), but is that really what GGG wants to be their status quo? Lack of choice, but we'll do it anyway....Try giving us a choice, See how that affects the numbers, what's there to lose?

where from this nonsense of new endgame being optional comes from?

there is nothing optional about it. you like it or not like it - it is there. you may ignore the benefits it gives you (% map drop chance or area specific base items) but there is ZERO options of playing the game as is now.

you CAN enjoy gorge rotas - but unless you buy Gorges from others you HAVE TO get to gorge map via adjacent maps of similar type. you HAVE to play the new mechanics.
you can ignore new orbs - sure. that one is optional, just like chaos orbs are optional. but the new map mechanics (drop only in similar-to areas, unique maps drop from same-as maps) are forced on everyone regardless if they like it or not.


the 'optional' bit was a snide troll aimed at lab-haters and it works wonderfully