Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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Albinosaurus wrote:

The proper approach is to try to allow those on the hardcore end of the spectrum to have their challenge while allowing softcore/casual players to enjoy the game.

The reason Lab is the source of so much conflict is that softcore/casual players don't appreciate it--they don't enjoy it, for far too many reasons. However, everyone (with very few exceptions) seems to enjoy Ascendancy, so the problem is obvious. No matter what else is wrong with Lab, this is inescapable.

Sorry, but it seems to me that you are still creating a false dichotomy, namely that between satisfying so-called hardcore players and changing the Lab. These are not mutually exclusive endeavors, because

Lab hater =/= casual player.
Lab lover =/= hardcore player.

There is overlap there, yes, but there is always overlap.

Even if such a categorization were accurate, it wouldn't be useful, because the Lab's biggest problems are qualitative. Therefore, GGG can't fully fix the Lab merely by applying quantitative tweaks:

1. Lowering trap damage won't fix the Lab.
2. Increasing drops/rewards won't fix (indeed, hasn't fixed) the Lab.
3. Making Izaro do less damage won't fix the Lab.

I play self-found in hardcore leagues, so I certainly do enjoy a challenge. The problem with the Lab is not that it is too difficult. This has never been the primary complaint of those who dislike it, responses of "Stop your QQ, it's not that hard" notwithstanding.

No, the very nature of the Lab, of being content which is designed to be skipped as much as possible because it is "work" and not "play," is what needs to be changed.

You're grossly mischaracterizing what I said, and still not understanding the point I made.

If everyone likes Ascendancy, some love Lab, and some hate Lab, the solution is to remove Ascendancy from Lab. Then--and only then--can real discussion about fixing the reasons people dislike Lab even begin to become relevant, or solutions possible.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

You're grossly mischaracterizing what I said, and still not understanding the point I made.

If everyone likes Ascendancy, some love Lab, and some hate Lab, the solution is to remove Ascendancy from Lab. Then--and only then--can real discussion about fixing the reasons people dislike Lab even begin to become relevant, or solutions possible.

Yeah giving people additional power after doing a challenge is a terrible idea.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

You're grossly mischaracterizing what I said, and still not understanding the point I made.

If everyone likes Ascendancy, some love Lab, and some hate Lab, the solution is to remove Ascendancy from Lab. Then--and only then--can real discussion about fixing the reasons people dislike Lab even begin to become relevant, or solutions possible.

Nah, I get your point, just pointing out some problems with your argumentation is all. I don't agree with your statement that "the reason Lab is the source of so much conflict is that softcore/casual players don't appreciate it," and sought to point out why that statement is problematic. I don't see any gross mischaracterization there at all, just a disagreement with your premise.

I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why I disagreed, but you are welcome to point to specific things if you don't think I did. (Indeed, you are going to have to be more specific than "you are mischaracterizing my statement and also not understanding it" if you want the discussion to be productive.)

I get it, your point is that the Ascendancy points should be removed from the Lab.

If it's any consolation, you're pretty likely to get what you want.

For related reasons, it's likely I won't get what I want.

What I (lab hater), goetzjam (lab lover), and many others on both side of the argument want is a better lab that everyone can enjoy, at which point the issue of the points being locked inside becomes (practically) moot. If the Lab is fun enough to run again and again on the same character, then the points will be obtained as a matter of course.

Gib,

If you want to replace "casuals" with "Lab haters" and read it that way, you can. The point is the same. I know those are two different groups of people, but there is a lot of overlap within them. In either case, do you see a way for people who hate the Lab to get what they want without upsetting people who like it? I don't. They are fundamentally different types of players. The only way I can see keeping Ascendancy in the Lab for people who want Ascendancy, but not wanting to run Lab, is by changing Lab so drastically that the people who like its current version would hate it almost as much as the people who hate it now. So you flip the problem on its head, but you still have the same problem. That's why I don't see any suggested changes to the Lab ever having meaning while Ascendancy is gated behind it.

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Yeah giving people additional power after doing a challenge is a terrible idea.

I already shot down the "risk vs reward" argument. It lacks substance. Further, this specific comment is such an over-generalization that is has no merit either.

Besides, if Ascendancy is moved out of Lab, it's likely to find its new home behind Malachai, so there's still some challenge there--especially for HC. If they want to keep the last 2 points behind the Uber Lab, I would even call that a fair compromise. In fact, I don't think I could levy a single complaint about that solution, because it's about as middle-ground as you can reasonably get.

My view is that arguing that Labyrinth is hard and worthy of great reward is bogus. While it may be true for some builds, for others like Juggernauts and very high movement rate Evasion characters, it is false. Those builds seem to be able to navigate through the traps easily and then the challenge is just Izaro. This is a problem more pronounced in Labyrinth than other general content because the horrible trap gameplay is foreign and unlike the normal great PoE gameplay.

@Albinosaurus - You're right in your assessment about moving the points but I don't think they should remove the points completely from the lab.

If they kept the lab as is, points there and all, but allowed for an additional path to the points outside of the lab then they could come to a more appropriate solution. That solution being an additional path to the points at the price of that path being significantly harder than the lab possibly involving some rng gating.

I see that assumption a lot - moving the points out of the lab would make them easier to get - but that really shouldn't be the case with how easy the lab is and how powerful ascendancy classes are.

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...that really shouldn't be the case with how easy the lab is and how powerful ascendancy classes are.

Some people say the Lab is easy, some say it's hard, some say the Ascendancy classes are super powerful, but even that is subjective due to their possible applications and the requirement of player knowledge to make the most out of them.

Ultimately, trying to relate the risk/challenge of Lab to the reward of Ascendancy can never be a useful argument.

As for moving the points outside of Lab (as an alternate to Lab), but putting a huge wall of hassle in the way, it's worth noting that Lab is already enough of a hassle that this is why these threads exist. Maybe it's a valid approach if done right, but considering what the Lab is and why people hate running it, I don't think trying to implement it the way you described would end well either, because GGG seems to be really confused lately (when it comes to content). There is a reason why people suggest putting it behind Malachai. A few reasons, in fact:

1) This wouldn't interrupt the natural flow of playing through the redundant Normal/Cruel difficulties. Therefore, it makes that experience less tedious/annoying. The "challenge" of Lab is moot on these difficulties already since it's so easy to just over-level and do them at 60 when they are faceroll content.

2) Merc Malachai has no purpose. There is no reason for players to want to kill him and finish the story mode. Once they get the last skill point in Act 4, they are usually done with it. Off to maps from there. Half the act is rendered useless.

3) The reason I mentioned earlier, that the last 2 Asc Pts could remain in Uber Lab. This still preserves some of the upper end of challenge the game tries to offer while alleviating the issue for the other 6 points. Most casual builds don't really need all 8 points, but those last two would be an appropriate carrot for the more intense players. It also keeps the most important chunk of the "paid-for runs" economy that some of the Lab lovers wouldn't want to see go.

As I see it, there really isn't a better alternative to give the greatest number of people as much of what they want as possible.

Even if they removed traps entirely, and the fail condition of dying, that would probably not work well, would it? Those are two of the biggest problems for people who don't appreciate it. Traps don't fit the gameplay of the rest of the game. Death being an auto-fail doesn't fit the softcore experience. While this would probably satisfy the people who dislike Lab as it is now, it doesn't respect the people who do like it.

What other solution actually tries to give everyone what they want as much as possible?

It's starting to sound like you just want an easier way to get the points and that it doesn't have much to do with the lab itself but rather the hassle or amount of work it represents.

If you don't want the points to be easier to get meaning the relative risk to reward ratio should be comparable between lab and malachai method of acquiring the points then GGG would probably have to nerf the shit out of the ascendancy classes to balance that out or make malachai a longer, riskier process while possibly rng gating the points.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the points to ever be easier to get than they are now and your malachai solution doesn't seem to address that problem.

I think the argument that they should be so hard is inherently flawed. It's the single most character defining thing you can have, and all you can think about is the power involved with it--not what it means to your character's identity. Not only that, you just keep defaulting to the pointless "risk/reward" argument.

If you're completely honest, there's no challenge in Normal/Cruel Lab anyway, so the real crux of what is being suggested is in Merc. Since the suggestion I support leaves Uber Lab alone, it's actually not that big of a shift. The main difference is just not having to deal with toxic trap gameplay. You still have a reasonably hard fight to earn them, and it adds meaning to the 2nd half of Act 4. Gating it behind RNG would also be a terrible idea. There's already enough bullshit RNG to drive players away from the game. We really don't need to have it on something so important for characters.

If people view it as "easier," that's fine. It's not a problem, though. It's a solution.