i can cheeze it. other seasoned players that know what to do - know how to cheeze it. im not even good at speedrunning it (when tried i managed ~4.5mins when top times were ~3mins - so there are A LOT players better than me).
mr CopyPasta with his 3.4k health tornado shot build clearing Gorges (because he offscreens everything) without risk WONT cheeze it. and because he thinks he is 'a god' of this game (clearing endgame content without a risk makes people think that way) he is not really willing to accept that his character is clearing gorge not BECAUSE the player is good but DESPITE him being crap at this game
such revelations hurt and people that are affected (mostly self-made gods expected to faceroll no matter what 'because they copypasted the good build') got hurt the most. some improved and do not suck no more (most of them are most probably also able to speed run it), some spent last 4 months whining and moved nowhere.
people without challenges to overcome are not progressing. most challenges arent 'fun' either. with current power creep and game being literally snoozefest because nothing is dangerous anymore - the lab is the only speed bump. something that forces people to at least think for a while about their build in terms other than 'deeps'
Please stop with the wrong view that the Labyrinth must be "cheesed", every decent "gamer" that invests a bit of time, has some skill and is determined to finish some content will manage it sooner or later, the problem was with the tediousness of the process regarding the implementation made in PoE (due to the lack of "fun" I might not go in the Uber Labyrinth soon, but I know can finish it, or even "cheese" it if needed, I just don't want to do that).
Some mentioned the side areas and traps in Torchlight 2, their unforgivingness, but also conveniently forgot the lack of technical problems - no lags/disconnects/FPS drops on non faulty hardware, even with heavily modded content - which made the experience a lot better than the one displayed in PoE.
The way PoE grew so much was by placing the options in the "gamer's" hands. It's sad to see the Labyrinth as a step backward, when it could have been so much more - you know the very concept implies that racing it won't be rewarded, but the "speed meta" just wins hands down. It should have been dangerous, it should felt scary and it should be the pinnacle of a thrilling journey. Right now, it is simply not...
There should be a better way to gear check, to skill check or even to check the patience of the PoE players. I always supported at least a mandatory 10% XP loss across all difficulties on Softcore, if deleveling isn't an option. There might be lots of views regarding the one chance to finish the Labyrinth, but I would like to have a few chances to try and beat the content as there are lots of factors when something goes wrong.
I'm in for a more difficult PoE (Izaro fights are a treat), which has the same feeling of "fun" from 1-100, but only by making the content harder but fairer in the same time - one shots that don't account properly for defences or reflect mechanics, are not ideal and I can only hope that future balance changes will make them obsolete.
And could we stop getting a "faux HC" feeling during Softcore, for those that enjoy trying to finish everything in one run could we get a "permanent test" league that reduces every portal number to 1 or at least 3 and always brings the bosses back to full life then? You just won't lose the character but have a more HC feeling - I'll pay for it even if I'm not into it, just because the current way of doing this with Labyrinth feels so wrong. That way maybe HC will get to be truer to it's name, especially if they implement an logout delay...
It's nice to be part of a community so invested in a game, our views and feedback feel taken in account by the GGG, even if the outcome is not always the one we wanted, and for that very reason I'll support them in every way I can.
you say that the most rewarding way to play the lab is to rush it - well.. it is not that simple. but to understand that you have to let the 'bad' feelings go and look at the opportunities it gives you
- enchants (speedrunning is the way to do it)
- multi-key runs (speedunning.. well, helps, but these runs can take up to 20 minutes on a bad day/mods. pretty risky for most builds so caution is necessary and knowing how to handle different layouts to find keys is more important than %MS)
- darkshrines (you do not even need to complete the lab to benefit)
- carry service for Izi
all of these are 'rewarding' as in cash income. only the first one relies on skip-skip-skip. all of them require you to know what you are doing. thats what lab brings to the table - an alternative to right-click-trough-Gorges (are people really calling lab boring when they spend 5+ hours chaining the same damn linear map? WTF!). you have to make choices (first no-no for many..), you have to make a plan. sometimes when i read what people write here i think that they 'know' the game of chess because they know how the pieces move. completing the lab is only the beginning.
and btw - i bet most players will find uber lab scary when they enter there for the first time. new trap combos ARE dangerous if ignored. very very dangerous. fair. but lethal. only well-versed players can safely zap trough them. and what is wrong wwith skill being rewarded?
the 1-go policy is there to let people understand where and why their builds fail. clearing blue gorges does not give them that chance. in normal game players are pretty much never challenged and if they are - TP/logout to safety. it is bulls.. situation and i see the 1-go as a refreshing thing. ive leveled SSF SRS lady into maps in prophecy. my first league character in ages. and ive died to normal and merc lab. both deaths were immensely valuable to me because i knew where my build lacks. normal gameplay did not send me that message. Lab deaths are FAIR. comparing that to clusterf.. of GFX vomit in maligaro's fight ill take 1-go Izi any time.
and this 1-go policy and how people react to it will make-or-break fix to 1shots BS deaths. if people moan too much about being forced to 'pseudo HC' then we will never see logout timers and fair fights. Lab is the only place that is FAIR - and it was only because they did that 1-go policy. sure - it hurts to die in the last fight. true. but i bet most of us who died there - know why. and while tech issues are there, i do not believe that all of these deaths were to BS reasons. people are not likely to admit to their own shortcomings.
note: i experience ZERO tech issues in the lab. no DC's, no stuttering, no weird network things. when stuff like that happen - any game suffers and in any game youll suffer unfair consequences of net issues. lab is no different. players who DC in the middle of undying alchemists will die just as well
you have to let the 'bad' feelings go and look at the opportunities it gives you...all of these are 'rewarding' as in cash income.
No doubt running the lab is great for those play the game for 'cash income'. GGG put a lot of bribes behind their labyrinth.
"
the 1-go policy is there to let people understand where and why their builds fail.
Myself, I like the 1-go policy, but how does it show where builds fail? You can always portal out and try again. Playing HC, I worry about death but I never worry about trying something twice. (I've also learned that I don't have to open every strongbox.)
"
ive died to normal and merc lab. both deaths were immensely valuable to me because i knew where my build lacks. normal gameplay did not send me that message. Lab deaths are FAIR. comparing that to clusterf.. of GFX vomit in maligaro's fight ill take 1-go Izi any time.
Did you die to traps or to Izaro, or something else? If it's the traps, that tells you nothing about your build as far as the rest of the game is concerned, and if it's Izaro or something else that could be done just as well without the trap gameplay in the lab.
"
and this 1-go policy and how people react to it will make-or-break fix to 1shots BS deaths. if people moan too much about being forced to 'pseudo HC' then we will never see logout timers and fair fights.
I have mixed feelings about this, but from a HC perspective I prefer having the option of an escape route (if I can get to it--and I'm not talking about ALT-F4) to logout timers and getting locked into boss fights with no way out. IMO the best game design is the possibility of very rapid but avoidable deaths, ones where you feel afterwards like you could have done something to avoid them, and if some people want to cheese the game with ALT-F4 scripts, so be it.
"
note: i experience ZERO tech issues in the lab.
I've also had no recent tech/dc issues with PoE, but just because you or I don't experience those things doesn't mean others are as lucky.
i can cheeze it. other seasoned players that know what to do - know how to cheeze it. im not even good at speedrunning it (when tried i managed ~4.5mins when top times were ~3mins - so there are A LOT players better than me).
mr CopyPasta with his 3.4k health tornado shot build clearing Gorges (because he offscreens everything) without risk WONT cheeze it. and because he thinks he is 'a god' of this game (clearing endgame content without a risk makes people think that way) he is not really willing to accept that his character is clearing gorge not BECAUSE the player is good but DESPITE him being crap at this game
such revelations hurt and people that are affected (mostly self-made gods expected to faceroll no matter what 'because they copypasted the good build') got hurt the most. some improved and do not suck no more (most of them are most probably also able to speed run it), some spent last 4 months whining and moved nowhere.
people without challenges to overcome are not progressing. most challenges arent 'fun' either. with current power creep and game being literally snoozefest because nothing is dangerous anymore - the lab is the only speed bump. something that forces people to at least think for a while about their build in terms other than 'deeps'
Please stop with the wrong view that the Labyrinth must be "cheesed", every decent "gamer" that invests a bit of time, has some skill and is determined to finish some content will manage it sooner or later, the problem was with the tediousness of the process regarding the implementation made in PoE (due to the lack of "fun" I might not go in the Uber Labyrinth soon, but I know can finish it, or even "cheese" it if needed, I just don't want to do that).
Some mentioned the side areas and traps in Torchlight 2, their unforgivingness, but also conveniently forgot the lack of technical problems - no lags/disconnects/FPS drops on non faulty hardware, even with heavily modded content - which made the experience a lot better than the one displayed in PoE.
The way PoE grew so much was by placing the options in the "gamer's" hands. It's sad to see the Labyrinth as a step backward, when it could have been so much more - you know the very concept implies that racing it won't be rewarded, but the "speed meta" just wins hands down. It should have been dangerous, it should felt scary and it should be the pinnacle of a thrilling journey. Right now, it is simply not...
There should be a better way to gear check, to skill check or even to check the patience of the PoE players. I always supported at least a mandatory 10% XP loss across all difficulties on Softcore, if deleveling isn't an option. There might be lots of views regarding the one chance to finish the Labyrinth, but I would like to have a few chances to try and beat the content as there are lots of factors when something goes wrong.
I'm in for a more difficult PoE (Izaro fights are a treat), which has the same feeling of "fun" from 1-100, but only by making the content harder but fairer in the same time - one shots that don't account properly for defences or reflect mechanics, are not ideal and I can only hope that future balance changes will make them obsolete.
And could we stop getting a "faux HC" feeling during Softcore, for those that enjoy trying to finish everything in one run could we get a "permanent test" league that reduces every portal number to 1 or at least 3 and always brings the bosses back to full life then? You just won't lose the character but have a more HC feeling - I'll pay for it even if I'm not into it, just because the current way of doing this with Labyrinth feels so wrong. That way maybe HC will get to be truer to it's name, especially if they implement an logout delay...
It's nice to be part of a community so invested in a game, our views and feedback feel taken in account by the GGG, even if the outcome is not always the one we wanted, and for that very reason I'll support them in every way I can.
"
sidtherat wrote:
you say that the most rewarding way to play the lab is to rush it - well.. it is not that simple. but to understand that you have to let the 'bad' feelings go and look at the opportunities it gives you
- enchants (speedrunning is the way to do it)
- multi-key runs (speedunning.. well, helps, but these runs can take up to 20 minutes on a bad day/mods. pretty risky for most builds so caution is necessary and knowing how to handle different layouts to find keys is more important than %MS)
- darkshrines (you do not even need to complete the lab to benefit)
- carry service for Izi
all of these are 'rewarding' as in cash income. only the first one relies on skip-skip-skip. all of them require you to know what you are doing. thats what lab brings to the table - an alternative to right-click-trough-Gorges (are people really calling lab boring when they spend 5+ hours chaining the same damn linear map? WTF!). you have to make choices (first no-no for many..), you have to make a plan. sometimes when i read what people write here i think that they 'know' the game of chess because they know how the pieces move. completing the lab is only the beginning.
and btw - i bet most players will find uber lab scary when they enter there for the first time. new trap combos ARE dangerous if ignored. very very dangerous. fair. but lethal. only well-versed players can safely zap trough them. and what is wrong wwith skill being rewarded?
the 1-go policy is there to let people understand where and why their builds fail. clearing blue gorges does not give them that chance. in normal game players are pretty much never challenged and if they are - TP/logout to safety. it is bulls.. situation and i see the 1-go as a refreshing thing. ive leveled SSF SRS lady into maps in prophecy. my first league character in ages. and ive died to normal and merc lab. both deaths were immensely valuable to me because i knew where my build lacks. normal gameplay did not send me that message. Lab deaths are FAIR. comparing that to clusterf.. of GFX vomit in maligaro's fight ill take 1-go Izi any time.
and this 1-go policy and how people react to it will make-or-break fix to 1shots BS deaths. if people moan too much about being forced to 'pseudo HC' then we will never see logout timers and fair fights. Lab is the only place that is FAIR - and it was only because they did that 1-go policy. sure - it hurts to die in the last fight. true. but i bet most of us who died there - know why. and while tech issues are there, i do not believe that all of these deaths were to BS reasons. people are not likely to admit to their own shortcomings.
note: i experience ZERO tech issues in the lab. no DC's, no stuttering, no weird network things. when stuff like that happen - any game suffers and in any game youll suffer unfair consequences of net issues. lab is no different. players who DC in the middle of undying alchemists will die just as well
I hold yours and a couple of others opinions in high regard, but GGG has to work harder to make the technical problems obsolete - my gripe is that I already experience severe FPS drops when using skills around a larger number of mobs post 2.3 (it isn't related to faulty hardware or bad Internet connection), and next to random disconnects, I'll stay out of the traps in Uber Labyrinth for now....
Also, I don't mind 1-go policy, but just don't see it as a nice addition in a "SOFT" core league (I could have always joined HC if I wanted that) not without giving a choice - I did felt around Awakening that the placement of choices at the players disposal was better then it is now, post Ascendancy, and yes, the Zana map mods should be allowed in a larger number if it's technically possible, if mapping is still an end game goal.
It's okay to find the Labyrinth scary, instead of tedious and boring, for me, all the game should should be way more scarier that it is now, but it would be also a lot nicer to have options regarding how your characters deal with the traps - I think that their variety is great, I would even like to see more everywhere in the game as long as I can choose to destroy them/bypass them using "SKILL"...
I would love to feel more righteously punished from my gameplay mistakes instead of being forced to accept "pseudo HC" gameplay when it's not needed or at least stated as a new focus to make the game harder - if GGG wants to increase the difficulty, I would also hope that they have better options - heck, even making challenges out of these 1-go's would be better from my point of view, as long as they can either introduce waypoints or a bit larger number of TP, as sometimes real life/technical problems hit, and you just lose your progress feeling cheated.
I can also memorize a merciless Labyrinth layout easily, and I don't think that I will be more challenged by the Uber layout, but thanks to Reddit I won't have to as it's fairly easy to find out stuff about it, but I actually would have enjoyed a more interactive layout, that changes around you decisions, and your success during Izaro's fights...
I feel that they have lost so much potential with the current implementation, that they just neglected that seeing people "cheese" it with the help of a few movement skills and quicksilver flasks makes it undeserving of the "Labyrinth" name...
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Jun 23, 2016, 8:40:08 AM
