Why the uber lab is a fuck-up

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Bars wrote:

You just addressed another main point I made: there is a huge disproportion in lab difficulty between builds. I'm starting to think you didn't read anything at all and are just trolling. Perhaps replying to you isn't wise.

there is huge disproportion in farming uber atziri.
i cant do it with my prolif facebreaker buid, as it's single target is meh, and it has no mobility.
pls nerf uber atzri, because i want that build enabling acuity or disfavor.

I'm thinking it's fully intentional and the reason is probably simple - the gap between capabilities of different builds in PoE is way too high to introduce anything that is equally challenging to all of them, even roughly speaking. So, they made regular lab compatible with 100% of the builds in the game as everyone should be able to complete it, you might need a bit of practice with some but any build can pull it off, movement skills not needed, specialized defenses not needed.

As a result, regular lab is way too easy for builds that are well-suited to take it on and fairly easy for the average decent build. You could say it's somewhat hard for experienced lab lubbers with bad builds and inexperienced ones with good builds while being really challenging only if your build is bad and you haven't ran lab much.

With the uber lab they just raised the bar until they got a cutoff point, novices with bad builds shouldn't be able to do it at all and only an experienced lab runner with a lab-compatible build should feel comfortable. I suppose it makes sense, it's an endgame activity, something you should spend some time working on, and those extra two points are more in the nature of an icing on the cake than something really needed by most builds out there, there are probably even some that wouldn't know what to spend them on.

The one issue I'll mention is Scion, Chris even said she was designed for 8 points from the start, so if she needs 8 points to be good we got a problem. Fortunately, they overrated the value of alternate start, most players aren't impressed with it as it just saves you a few points, it isn't a build enabler so the whole thing kinda works, but it's still a design fart.

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mezmery wrote:

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Bars wrote:

You just addressed another main point I made: there is a huge disproportion in lab difficulty between builds. I'm starting to think you didn't read anything at all and are just trolling. Perhaps replying to you isn't wise.

there is huge disproportion in farming uber atziri.
i cant do it with my prolif facebreaker buid, as it's single target is meh, and it has no mobility.
pls nerf uber atzri, because i want that build enabling acuity or disfavor.

How can you compare uber to lab, a almost necessity? Apples to oranges.

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raics wrote:

I'm thinking it's fully intentional and the reason is probably simple - the gap between capabilities of different builds in PoE is way too high to introduce anything that is equally challenging to all of them, even roughly speaking. So, they made regular lab compatible with 100% of the builds in the game as everyone should be able to complete it, you might need a bit of practice with some but any build can pull it off, movement skills not needed, specialized defenses not needed.

As a result, regular lab is way too easy for builds that are well-suited to take it on and fairly easy for the average decent build. You could say it's somewhat hard for experienced lab lubbers with bad builds and inexperienced ones with good builds while being really challenging only if your build is bad and you haven't ran lab much.

With the uber lab they just raised the bar until they got a cutoff point, novices with bad builds shouldn't be able to do it at all and only an experienced lab runner with a lab-compatible build should feel comfortable. I suppose it makes sense, it's an endgame activity, something you should spend some time working on, and those extra two points are more in the nature of an icing on the cake than something really needed by most builds out there, there are probably even some that wouldn't know what to spend them on.

Not quite. It's not a question of how good your build is, is a question of what type of build you're running. My build kills everything in one hit and all bosses I've encountered, including highest tier maps and Atziri, in a second or two. It's still shit for the lab. A random armour-life regen marauder or our trolling friend's MoM build will feel like a breeze in comparison although they might be incomparably weaker for almost anything else.

Dexterity-heavy builds are at a hard disadvantage regardless of their overall power. Most intelligence-heavy builds too.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

How can you compare uber to lab, a almost necessity? Apples to oranges.

i cant do cruel mala with most of my builds while leveling, so i just buy it. same way as shav is nessesity for many builds, but you dont get it yourself - you buy it.

im not going to build another cycloner, cause i want to play bow witch, or ci vp leech, or whatever.

there is plenty of boosting lab services, also many free ones, because you pay for enter. you can just wait till carry opens gauntlet doors.
some traps you have to suffer through, but it's still way easier, as you can ask about sequence and you can stay outside while carry kills izaro.

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Bars wrote:

Not quite. It's not a question of how good your build is, is a question of what type of build you're running.

Indeed, that's what I was saying, not overall good but in terms of lab compatibility, just like we have Atziri compatibility index. I hear the Japanese even made a mobile app for it, you input the creation date of your build followed by Atziri's birthday (3.3.333 BIC) and it spits out your compatibility chart.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Lab would be a lot more enticing for me if...

1. More deterministic crafting. 3 choice. one being one you have.
2. Portals. I don't enchant anything simply because I cant trade, answer phone or wipe my baby's ass when in with lab.
3. Vision. No idea why trails look like black hole with 6K life. Do I need two Nycta's Lantern's and two Lori's Lanterns to see anything?
4. Monster level with you. No point in wasting 15 min+ in lab for no exp. Merc lvls till 70. Uber 70-80 (80's a 13 map exp wise)

Otherwise like others I just do it for ascendancy and GTFO

1. Yeah. And they really don't need 350 helm enchants. The dilution is preposterous. There are so many horrible enchants that no one will ever use like searing bond totem elemental resistances. GGG should take the really stupid and obvious dilution enchants like increased specific curse duration and combine them (45% increased curse duration is still crap but at least it's only 1 crap and not 12 craps). They can do the same with other things like universal golem damage instead of specific, universal totem/minion/golem resist, etc. We'd still have 100+ enchants which is STILL a fucking excessive grind.

2. Each room with the stash is safe. If you're a fast lab runner you only need ~1-4 minutes uninterrupted. Trade is a problem though. GGG really needs to add asynchronous trade.

3. Yeah the light sources in this game lead to really poor trap gameplay. You just run and pot, it's stupid. Trap gauntlets need much greater visibility (fixed light sources, zoomed out view and/or an option to preview an area because many of the endgame lab gauntlets are much longer than your view distance and void of safe zones so you just zoom though - it's all brute force and so anti skill/timing.

4. With how fucking expensive/scarce offerings are GGG should have made the lab a level 85 zone. At least then if I consume a 15+c opportunity cost entry fee I'd actually possibly even enjoy full clearing it vs. zipping through as fast as possible because the monsters provide shit XP.

Edit: Oh new point: The endgame lab system completely ruins the mapping experience for characters who aren't suited for lab. If you're mapping on a character that does poorly in traps and find an endgame trial, even if you don't click it and swap characters to do it the offering will not drop for that character. It will only drop if the character that first opened the map reaches the end of the trial. So basically all of your builds that aren't suited for trap gauntlets are bricked, unless you're willing to accept a high risk of death penalty or throw 15+c away every time you find a trial.

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mezmery wrote:

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Bars wrote:

You just addressed another main point I made: there is a huge disproportion in lab difficulty between builds. I'm starting to think you didn't read anything at all and are just trolling. Perhaps replying to you isn't wise.

there is huge disproportion in farming uber atziri.
i cant do it with my prolif facebreaker buid, as it's single target is meh, and it has no mobility.
pls nerf uber atzri, because i want that build enabling acuity or disfavor.

What retarted argumnet.Nothing importanat isnt gated behind uber atziri,it's optional,ac points are not,you must get ac points with every build.How can you compare uber atziri and lab ffs?

i personally compare the uber lab to uber atziri, not all builds can manage it.

however, the advantage of the lab is: you can first run a build that can manage the lab, get the points and then switch to the build you originally planned.

but then, who want's to play on standard...

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And1111 wrote:

What retarted argumnet.

if the uber lab is (obviously) not doable for a a series of builds, the current implementation is a nerf to all of these builds as they can't get the additional ascendancy points. some players's will go at lengths to get the points anyway to circumvent this limitation.

is it retarded to state the obvious?

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for the limits of the current implementation i refer to raics' post which i fully agree to.

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And1111 wrote:

What retarted argumnet.Nothing importanat isnt gated behind uber atziri,it's optional,ac points are not,you must get ac points with every build.How can you compare uber atziri and lab ffs?

we are talkin about uber lab after all
and atziri items are really good. same way as extra 2 point are extremly good. but you somehow played with 6 points before prophecy.