Let's Talk Compromise

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Not true, I have seen it mentioned many times that many people generally stop playing Merciless act 4 after completing the Desheret quest then go to maps. Also I don't understand what opportunity cost it is that you are talking about? Don't people that like playing the horrible labyrinth, play it sometime during act 3? So then those people are rewarded by everything that currently rewards them playing labyrinth, which is going to include the ascendancy points a full act sooner than Malachai?

What's the reason I'd play it in Normal and Cruel rather than wait to Merciless for enchants only (or maybe the last two points)? Your suggestion is bad because it would make inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling (no, you don't need to overlevel). That's the consideration GGG will likely make (They actually want people running that place, you know).

As it is, Act IV is easier to achieve than completing the Labyrinth (you can go kamikaze on Malachai, so the real difficulty is almost zero).

I still don't understand. Where is the lost opportunity? What is the opportunity that was lost? You saying the labyrinth is harder than completing act 4 seems to contradict previous assertions that labyrinth is easy to do and no one should complain about it? I've played through the trap portion of the labyrinth and it is no where near as difficult as Act 4. It is just boring as heck!

My suggestion has nothing to do with when you run labyrinth unless you are claiming that one needs to complete act 4 and additional acts in the next difficulty before running labyrinth? If that is the case then labyrinth is more dysfunctional and poorly designed that I ever imagined!

Also another statement you made that doesn't make sense to me is an assertion that GGG wants to force people to run the labyrinth for some strange reason. That makes no sense to me. This seems to be a reminent of the silly argument that the labyrinth is supposed to be some kind of build or skill clarifying test to weed out inferior builds and players that have no skill. It really doesn't make sense.

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Turtledove wrote:

I still don't understand. Where is the lost opportunity? What is the opportunity that was lost? You saying the labyrinth is harder than completing act 4 seems to contradict previous assertions that labyrinth is easy to do and no one should complain about it? I've played through the trap portion of the labyrinth and it is no where near as difficult as Act 4. It is just boring as heck!

My suggestion has nothing to do with when you run labyrinth unless you are claiming that one needs to complete act 4 and additional acts in the next difficulty before running labyrinth? If that is the case then labyrinth is more dysfunctional and poorly designed that I ever imagined!

Also another statement you made that doesn't make sense to me is an assertion that GGG wants to force people to run the labyrinth for some strange reason. That makes no sense to me. This seems to be a reminent of the silly argument that the labyrinth is supposed to be some kind of build or skill clarifying test to weed out inferior builds and players that have no skill. It really doesn't make sense.

Have you even fought Izaro? I've never said the labyrinth is easy, nor that people shouldn't complain. If other people said so, it wasn't me, so don't bring that point.

I just have my differences with people that talk about how should be an ARPG.

Also, I think you are jumping to conclussions too many times. If GGG put the labyrinth while leveling, it's because they expect people to run it, seems evident.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

I still don't understand. Where is the lost opportunity? What is the opportunity that was lost? You saying the labyrinth is harder than completing act 4 seems to contradict previous assertions that labyrinth is easy to do and no one should complain about it? I've played through the trap portion of the labyrinth and it is no where near as difficult as Act 4. It is just boring as heck!

My suggestion has nothing to do with when you run labyrinth unless you are claiming that one needs to complete act 4 and additional acts in the next difficulty before running labyrinth? If that is the case then labyrinth is more dysfunctional and poorly designed that I ever imagined!

Also another statement you made that doesn't make sense to me is an assertion that GGG wants to force people to run the labyrinth for some strange reason. That makes no sense to me. This seems to be a reminent of the silly argument that the labyrinth is supposed to be some kind of build or skill clarifying test to weed out inferior builds and players that have no skill. It really doesn't make sense.

Have you even fought Izaro? I've never said the labyrinth is easy, nor that people shouldn't complain. If other people said so, it wasn't me, so don't bring that point.

I just have my differences with people that talk about how should be an ARPG.

Also, I think you are jumping to conclussions too many times. If GGG put the labyrinth while leveling, it's because they expect people to run it, seems evident.

Yes, I tried for a third time to run the boring tedious and not fun labyrinth. I got through the trap portion without problems, except for the painfully boring and tedious game play. I then died fighting Izaro due to lag. I was only level 30 at the time so I wasn't really over leveled. Izaro seemed like a tough new major boss. This is the normal GGG way. They generally make the new major bosses way over powered and then later nerf them down.

I note that you did not try to explain a single one of my questions that were asked in order to try to understand what your points were?

Regarding your statement "If GGG put the labyrinth while leveling, it's because they expect people to run it, seems evident." Is a tautology without any real meaning that I can fathom.

edit: here's a more detailed description of my third labyrinth run https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1602474/page/36#p13118383

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Turtledove wrote:

Regarding your statement "If GGG put the labyrinth while leveling, it's because they expect people to run it, seems evident." Is a tautology without any meaning that I can fathom.

Basically it means that any alternative to getting the AC points must not discourage playing the labyrinth at each difficulty. The Malachai solution does that.

About your questions, what do you mean by this:

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Turtledove wrote:

My suggestion has nothing to do with when you run labyrinth unless you are claiming that one needs to complete act 4 and additional acts in the next difficulty before running labyrinth? If that is the case then labyrinth is more dysfunctional and poorly designed that I ever imagined!

?

It's poorly written. I've run the labyrinth as soon as I could, I don't overlevel on purpose.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Regarding your statement "If GGG put the labyrinth while leveling, it's because they expect people to run it, seems evident." Is a tautology without any meaning that I can fathom.

Basically it means that any alternative to getting the AC points must not discourage playing the labyrinth at each difficulty. The Malachai solution does that.

About your questions, what do you mean by this:

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Turtledove wrote:

My suggestion has nothing to do with when you run labyrinth unless you are claiming that one needs to complete act 4 and additional acts in the next difficulty before running labyrinth? If that is the case then labyrinth is more dysfunctional and poorly designed that I ever imagined!

?

It's poorly written. I've run the labyrinth as soon as I could, I don't overlevel on purpose.

You stated, "Your suggestion is bad because it would make inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling (no, you don't need to overlevel)."

I'm trying to make sense out of that statement. How could it possibly make it inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling. The proposal was to MAKE NO CHANGES TO LABYRINTH, so I can't make sense out of your statement.

For your convenience, here's the two sentence proposal. "Leave the labyrinth as it is but make the ascendancy points available later if they aren't taken in the labyrinth. So, perhaps after killing Malachi the points will be made available if they haven't already been awarded to that character?"

Your response made zero sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

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Turtledove wrote:

You stated, "Your suggestion is bad because it would make inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling (no, you don't need to overlevel)."

I'm trying to make sense out of that statement. How could it possibly make it inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling. The proposal was to MAKE NO CHANGES TO LABYRINTH, so I can't make sense out of your statement.

For your convenience, here's the two sentence proposal. "Leave the labyrinth as it is but make the ascendancy points available later if they aren't taken in the labyrinth. So, perhaps after killing Malachi the points will be made available if they haven't already been awarded to that character?"

Your response made zero sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

Do you know how leveling works, isn't it? People will skip as many zones as possible if there is no advantage to doing it. If you can get points by killing Malachai, then the most efficient route is to skip the labyrinth at Normal and Cruel and run the Merciless one for enchants. It won't happen, assuming GGG is not cool making Normal and Cruel labyrinth something players will not generally play.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

You stated, "Your suggestion is bad because it would make inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling (no, you don't need to overlevel)."

I'm trying to make sense out of that statement. How could it possibly make it inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling. The proposal was to MAKE NO CHANGES TO LABYRINTH, so I can't make sense out of your statement.

For your convenience, here's the two sentence proposal. "Leave the labyrinth as it is but make the ascendancy points available later if they aren't taken in the labyrinth. So, perhaps after killing Malachi the points will be made available if they haven't already been awarded to that character?"

Your response made zero sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

Do you know how leveling works, isn't it? People will skip as many zones as possible if there is no advantage to doing it. If you can get points by killing Malachai, then the most efficient route is to skip the labyrinth at Normal and Cruel and run the Merciless one for enchants. It won't happen, assuming GGG is not cool making Normal and Cruel labyrinth something players will not generally play.

I think I know how leveling works?

You would get the ascendancy points an act earlier if you did labyrinth. I disagree with your assertion that people skip everything that they don't have to do. I have done every quest for every character up until labyrinth was released. I suspect that most people do most all if not all of the quests as well, even the ones not required to advance.

Perhaps you're saying that most people would skip the labyrinth because you believe that most people do not enjoy the labyrinth? Do you agree that the game's purpose is to have fun? If so then it makes sense to let people have fun and not play parts of the game that are boring tedious frustrating and not fun!

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Turtledove wrote:

You would get the ascendancy points an act earlier if you did labyrinth. I disagree with your assertion that people skip everything that they don't have to do. I have done every quest for every character up until labyrinth was released. I suspect that most people do most all if not all of the quests as well, even the ones not required to advance.

A lot of people won't do it. That's a fact. Rushing to the endgame and all that.

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Turtledove wrote:

Perhaps you're saying that most people would skip the labyrinth because you believe that most people do not enjoy the labyrinth? Do you agree that the game's purpose is to have fun? If so then it makes sense to let people have fun and not play parts of the game that are boring tedious frustrating and not fun!

No, I say that even if they like it, they will wait to Merciless, because it makes the most sense under that scheme if you want to get to the endgame as soon as possible. You'll have to come with something better than Malachai, there is no way around.

It's not about forcing people, it's about not discouraging people that would actually do it, but are constrained to level up fast.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

You would get the ascendancy points an act earlier if you did labyrinth. I disagree with your assertion that people skip everything that they don't have to do. I have done every quest for every character up until labyrinth was released. I suspect that most people do most all if not all of the quests as well, even the ones not required to advance.

A lot of people won't do it. That's a fact. Rushing to the endgame and all that.

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Turtledove wrote:

Perhaps you're saying that most people would skip the labyrinth because you believe that most people do not enjoy the labyrinth? Do you agree that the game's purpose is to have fun? If so then it makes sense to let people have fun and not play parts of the game that are boring tedious frustrating and not fun!

No, I say that even if they like it, they will wait to Merciless, because it makes the most sense under that scheme if you want to get to the endgame as soon as possible. You'll have to come with something better than Malachai, there is no way around.

It's not about forcing people, it's about not discouraging people that would actually do it, but are constrained to level up fast.

Sorry I think that you still haven't given any real reason against the proposal. You seem to be saying that one has to run labyrinth because one has to run labyrinth. That is not really saying anything. It is just repeating a tautology. So what if they wait until Merciless? If people want to rush to end game and skip quests then fine and good. People do that today, I would assume for other quests? If that is what people want to do then what is the harm? Sorry, your argument doesn't make sense. How is that really discouraging people? It is in fact doing the exact opposite. I don't play the boring tedious frustrating and not fun labyrinth. The labyrinth discourages me from playing PoE. GGG should want to encourage people to play PoE not discourage them?

Labyrinth has many problems. Yeah, I said that. :V

But none of them are:

1) Ascendancy being given after finishing Labyrinth
2) Traps
3) Semi-hardcore nature of Labyrinth

These things needs to stay for me.

BUT

Problems that Lab have right now:

1) Crashes/Lags/DCs

These are no design flaws, but obviously making Lab almost impossible to complete for some people. This must go, period. Not point that I'm willing to compromise on, because everyone agrees on this one, but this is the biggest problem, so far.

2) Traps are not balanced properly

They are very hard for some builds (hybrids, low-life, ES in general, low movement speed) and almost non existent for others (extreme movement speed, life, etc.). That is not the point of traps. This needs to be addressed by GGG. This can be even done by slightly decreasing the damage overall, but making it much harder for builds that find it too easy.

3) Trials of Ascendancy on Cruel and Merciless needs to go

They serve no purpose - Normal Trials are tutorials.

4) Izaro's fight mechanics

They either need to be better explained before the fight (Trails of Ascendancy in some way, maybe?) or or far better hinted in the fight. Also, some of the mechanics needs to be reworked (fucking Golems enchanting Izaro with elemental damage... this mechanic + melee = chore)

5) Allow save points... for a price

There could be a option to allow save point after Izaro's fights, for a price of, I dunno, few c?
On the other hand, this might lead to people complaining a lot about their lost currency... urgh.

Or maybe allow save points, but after you save, you get even more Exp penalty for dying in the Lab?
On the other hand, people will simply run it at 0% EXP...

I really wish there was an easy solution for this, but simply allowing people to zerg-force it (just like other things in the game) is a no-go for me. This is what Lab stands for me - you either know how to do it, or you die trying and learn. If you cannot learn, you don't get it.

6) Rewards for completing it for the first time

People say they don't do it after doing it for the first time. How about we give them a lot more rewards for completing it for the first time? How about allowing player to open all of the reward chests? Extra 5 keys? Bonus 5 enchantments?

I'm all for improving the Lab and making it better for people who don't enjoy it. But I also want people to get better at the game, instead of making everything a DPS-Glass-cannon-zerg-fest.