Let's Talk Compromise

Rinth doesn't need to change. Leave it be for those who, for whatever reason, enjoy running it.

Remove Ascendancy points from being gated by rinth and the amount of complaints will drop next to none.

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Telzen wrote:

Leave the Labyrinth alone. If they need another way to get Ascendancy points then have two ways to get them. Either you can get them in the Labyrinth like now, or you can get them some other way later. That way you at least get them first if you do the Labyrinth and you have to wait a bit if you get them with the other method. You could get them from say completing the current difficulty but getting them from the Labyrinth first gives you that power boost to get through Act 4.

This is the best compromise that I've heard. Leave the labyrinth as it is but make the ascendancy points available later if they aren't taken in the labyrinth. So, perhaps after killing Malachi the points will be made available if they haven't already been awarded to that character?

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Turtledove wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

Leave the Labyrinth alone. If they need another way to get Ascendancy points then have two ways to get them. Either you can get them in the Labyrinth like now, or you can get them some other way later. That way you at least get them first if you do the Labyrinth and you have to wait a bit if you get them with the other method. You could get them from say completing the current difficulty but getting them from the Labyrinth first gives you that power boost to get through Act 4.

This is the best compromise that I've heard. Leave the labyrinth as it is but make the ascendancy points available later if they aren't taken in the labyrinth. So, perhaps after killing Malachi the points will be made available if they haven't already been awarded to that character?

No, it's a shit compromise. I told you why before. Everyone kills Malachai, so there is no opportunity cost to that.

Heres a compromise... If you want the exponential power to your build that comes from ascending your class then run the lab.. if you hate that lab that much then dont do it but at the cost of not having your build finished or took to the next level till you do.

I mean the entire point of the lab is pretty simple.. Its the gateway to taking your build to the next level of being even more powerful. The vast majority of the ascendancy class's are such a huge buff to most all builds that ofcourse it shouldn't be just given away.. you SHOULD have to work for it.

WE are not taking about a couple extra points to put in your tree or something here we are talking about major build enabling buffs to your build. If you dont enjoy the lab thats fine but you still have to do it atleast once per difficulty to ascend your builds.. thats just the way it is. Theres no reason to compromise and basically give away such power. Its like saying that every time you complete a difficulty and defeat Mal you should get a choice of a free T1 Unique item for your build as well.. How much sense would that make? Just basically giving away free power to builds for doing what you are already going to do anyway?

The lab is not even that bad at all... Having to run it just to ascend is NOT that big of deal.. Now trying to get GG enhancements.. Well now thats a totally different story but again your not FORCED to do it.. If you so choose to not worry about the enhancements you can skip further runs of the lab but at the cost of not getting those enhancements or having to buy them from other players who do not mind running the lab. But running the lab to ascend your class and get the huge buffs that come with it is pretty damn fair already. Hell if anything its not too bad of a deal. You run the lab 3 times and have a HUGE buff to your build with no other investment besides the rest of the build you are doing anyway.

Agree with Nero's post above.

I think the real issues are:
1. Server instability
2. Trials boring, repeating tutorials sucks
3. Izaro hard

My responses to those issues are:
1. GGG should fix it.
2. GGG should fix it; make it only two Trials per difficulty, with different ones each difficulty, for a total of 2/4/6 trap types used in Normal/Cruel/Merciless Lab. Very time-saving for those who only run Lab once.
3. Maybe nerf Cruel Izaro a bit (makes 4 Ascendancy Points more achievable). Merciless Izaro should remain as-is as a challenge for the dedicated; the fifth and sixth Ascendancy points deserve to be difficult to achieve.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Telzen wrote:

Leave the Labyrinth alone. If they need another way to get Ascendancy points then have two ways to get them. Either you can get them in the Labyrinth like now, or you can get them some other way later. That way you at least get them first if you do the Labyrinth and you have to wait a bit if you get them with the other method. You could get them from say completing the current difficulty but getting them from the Labyrinth first gives you that power boost to get through Act 4.

This is the best compromise that I've heard. Leave the labyrinth as it is but make the ascendancy points available later if they aren't taken in the labyrinth. So, perhaps after killing Malachi the points will be made available if they haven't already been awarded to that character?

No, it's a shit compromise. I told you why before. Everyone kills Malachai, so there is no opportunity cost to that.

Not true, I have seen it mentioned many times that many people generally stop playing Merciless act 4 after completing the Desheret quest then go to maps. Also I don't understand what opportunity cost it is that you are talking about? Don't people that like playing the horrible labyrinth, play it sometime during act 3? So then those people are rewarded by everything that currently rewards them playing labyrinth, which is going to include the ascendancy points a full act sooner than Malachai?

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Turtledove wrote:

Not true, I have seen it mentioned many times that many people generally stop playing Merciless act 4 after completing the Desheret quest then go to maps. Also I don't understand what opportunity cost it is that you are talking about? Don't people that like playing the horrible labyrinth, play it sometime during act 3? So then those people are rewarded by everything that currently rewards them playing labyrinth, which is going to include the ascendancy points a full act sooner than Malachai?

What's the reason I'd play it in Normal and Cruel rather than wait to Merciless for enchants only (or maybe the last two points)? Your suggestion is bad because it would make inefficient to run the labyrinth while leveling (no, you don't need to overlevel). That's the consideration GGG will likely make (They actually want people running that place, you know).

As it is, Act IV is easier to achieve than completing the Labyrinth (you can go kamikaze on Malachai, so the real difficulty is almost zero).

As far as "gear checks" go...

Normal Izaro should be between Normal A3 Piety and Normal Dominus (leaning more toward Piety).

Cruel Izaro should be between Cruel Dominus and Cruel Daresso/Kaom (leaning more towards Dominus).

Merciless Izaro should be between Merciless Daresso/Kaom and Merciless Malachai (leaning more towards Daresso/Kaom).

Reasoning:
The first two Ascendancy points should be a relatively simple matter, usually grabbed between Piety's +2 passive point quest and finishing Act 3.

Merciless Izaro should be an endgame goal. You should not have 6 Ascendancy points when you begin mapping, unless you're epic. I don't think he should quite trump Malachai as a final nonmap boss, but just short of that would be perfect.

Cruel should average the difference.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

As far as "gear checks" go...

Normal Izaro should be between Normal A3 Piety and Normal Dominus (leaning more toward Piety).

Cruel Izaro should be between Cruel Dominus and Cruel Daresso/Kaom (leaning more towards Dominus).

Merciless Izaro should be between Merciless Daresso/Kaom and Merciless Malachai (leaning more towards Daresso/Kaom).

Izaro isn't really the right boss to use as a gear check, he's designed to be more of a skill-check instead.

Also, because you can make him considerably easier or harder, you can't easily place Izaro's dificulty. It depends a lot on which adds he gets, whether you disabled them, and which traps are in the final fight.

eg: If you make Izaro harder than Daresso with no bonuses, then with full charges he'll be much harder than Malachai.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Merciless Izaro should be between Merciless Daresso/Kaom and Merciless Malachai (leaning more towards Daresso/Kaom).

He's already considerably easier than Malachai even for glass cannon builds since it isn't a fight of attrition and the dificulty can be reduced a lot if you deal with the mechanics properly.