SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Xavathos wrote:

I guess you've never played Torchlight before. Far less dangerous? I'd consider sleeping on the traps in PoE compared to those found in TL2.

Sacred had them too, and in a fairly nice variety, gas traps, dart traps, bear traps, rigged cannons and more, trap rooms too with electric barriers and whatnot.

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Xavathos wrote:

I guess you've never played Torchlight before. Far less dangerous? I'd consider sleeping on the traps in PoE compared to those found in TL2.

You would be correct. I haven't bought many games recently. Mostly the Assassin's Creed series (fun, but getting dull, hate the sailing parts, and I liked the storyline better when it focused on the modern day stuff more), Destiny (definitely not my cup of tea - especially hated the jumping puzzles in the Kingsfall raid), (mainly because my best friend likes them, and wanted me to play too) and most recenly Grim Dawn and Fate (not liking Fate much, due to melee combat stuff being very lacking). Grim Dawn has some real potential, but the main reason I bought it was because it's got modding tools to build my own scenarios, and that tickles my fancy as a game developer myself. Haven't had a chance to try it out yet, as I have to move soon, and I have lots of other concerns taking my time in my non-recreational life.

Though, my history with gaming goes back to the Atari 2600 and Colecovision, and most of my action RPG experience comes from classic fun games like Chrysalis, Secret of Mana and Soul Blazer (edit: oh, and Kingdom Hearts, the first one, haven't played any more of them yet); never played Diablo, and never plan to. So, that might give you and idea of where I'm coming from.

(also edit: Most of my time playing games is spent evaluating how game elements work together, or don't work, always looking at things from a developer's point of view, trying to see their motivations and reasonings, and how that gets translated into implementation. That's why I see the Labyrinth as a mess, conceptually, and implementation-wise. It's more fundamental problems that I see, which is why I can break it down into what "doesn't work" to me, so much easier than people that just come here venting, I think.)

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Xavathos wrote:

<quote by Zaludoz here>

I guess you've never played Torchlight before. Far less dangerous? I'd consider sleeping on the traps in PoE compared to those found in TL2.

You didn't contradict a single thing Zaludoz said, if you read his post carefully, but you wrote as if you did.

He said "usually far less dangerous" and you mentioned one issue (lethality) for one game in your response. Is that the extent of your response?

On a related note, I've played a fair amount of TL 2, getting to the upper level 60s on a vet hardcore engineer summoner, plus I've played several other characters in vanilla TL 2 and with the Synergies mod. I always lost interest at some point with TL 2 characters, hence no deeper progression. But, that wasn't because of traps, which I found to be well done in TL 2. Also, in TL 2 you had 4 difficulties from which you could choose (casual, normal, veteran, and elite). Traps end up being lethal in TL 2 when a player chooses a difficulty level at which that was likely, unlike in POE. Furthermore, character progression isn't gated behind trap gauntlets in TL 2; you could avoid the relatively small number of trap gauntlets in the game entirely in TL 2 and still explore all of your character's abilities, especially if you used mods, which is unlike POE. You can save your progress in TL 2 at pretty much any point and then take the game up again in a later session, whether traps are around or not; that's not how lab works in POE. Being online and subject to starting a trap-heavy area all over again if a disconnect occurs also isn't even a thing for TL 2, unlike for POE. Trials are also not a thing, in TL 2.

In short, by citing TL 2 you en up highlighting how trap gauntlets that have character progression gated behind them, that ignore most of your defenses, that require a "start to finish" gameplay session, that require an online connection and force you to start over if a disconnect occurs, and that are designed to be lethal, is a POE thing.

Put another way, Mercury really doesn't have the same temperature as Earth, even though both planets have something you can accurately label as "temperature."

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LowBudget780 wrote:

Labs are a frustrating, unenjoyable, stress filled mess that screw up the pace of the game for me. They should at least implement portals or something, since they crash all the time and require currency for uber.

LowBudget780, thank you for voicing your opinion on the frustrating unenjoyable mess called labyrinth. I've added your name to the list of people that have shared a similar point of view, now at 925 names.

Over 340 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 920 posters in support

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

<quote by Zaludoz here>

I guess you've never played Torchlight before. Far less dangerous? I'd consider sleeping on the traps in PoE compared to those found in TL2.

You didn't contradict a single thing Zaludoz said, if you read his post carefully, but you wrote as if you did.

He said "usually far less dangerous" and you mentioned one issue (lethality) for one game in your response. Is that the extent of your response?

On a related note, I've played a fair amount of TL 2, getting to the upper level 60s on a vet hardcore engineer summoner, plus I've played several other characters in vanilla TL 2 and with the Synergies mod. I always lost interest at some point with TL 2 characters, hence no deeper progression. But, that wasn't because of traps, which I found to be well done in TL 2. Also, in TL 2 you had 4 difficulties from which you could choose (casual, normal, veteran, and elite). Traps end up being lethal in TL 2 when a player chooses a difficulty level at which that was likely, unlike in POE. Furthermore, character progression isn't gated behind trap gauntlets in TL 2; you could avoid the relatively small number of trap gauntlets in the game entirely in TL 2 and still explore all of your character's abilities, especially if you used mods, which is unlike POE. You can save your progress in TL 2 at pretty much any point and then take the game up again in a later session, whether traps are around or not; that's not how lab works in POE. Being online and subject to starting a trap-heavy area all over again if a disconnect occurs also isn't even a thing for TL 2, unlike for POE. Trials are also not a thing, in TL 2.

In short, by citing TL 2 you en up highlighting how trap gauntlets that have character progression gated behind them, that ignore most of your defenses, that require a "start to finish" gameplay session, that require an online connection and force you to start over if a disconnect occurs, and that are designed to be lethal, is a POE thing.

Put another way, Mercury really doesn't have the same temperature as Earth, even though both planets have something you can accurately label as "temperature."

I don't always have time for a lengthy response. Also, responding to posts made against the Lab here is a little like trying to put out a fire with petrol. Anyway, here we go again:

TL2 has very dangerous traps that can easily kill a character built to be extremely tanky in a matter of seconds. A character built to be tanky in PoE can go AFK in spike traps and never die. Also, you don't deal with those traps for some extra ascendancy passives either, they are in core maps of the game and block any progression. You HAVE to pass them if you want to play at all. In PoE, you only have to if you want those passives.

But that's just it, isn't it? The condition is set and you know exactly what you have to do, yet you do not agree to it and won't do it as a result. As Izaro would say "An emperor must know precisely where he stands."

Do traps in TL2 block one of the most important aspects of the build?
If not, they are not comparable to traps in PoE

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Nishrek wrote:

Do traps in TL2 block one of the most important aspects of the build?
If not, they are not comparable to traps in PoE

I literally answer this in my post above. I won't repeat myself.

A fucking joke, game froze while doing the sins trial in act7. 67lvls of progress are now in standard, thx Obama. Had both pantheon powers that reduced dmg over time taken + 650regen. Interesting that if a freeze like that would have happened anywhere else up to a certain level i would have been well and alive.

Is it the fault of stupid mechanics? The fault of stupid game engine? The fault of stupid design? Or a combination of them?

GGG notice those things, and understand why the lab - with all the things mentioned here and elsewhere that make it a bad idea - is totally bullshit. The fact that a simple freeze (2-3 seconds and i instantly turned off the pc) can kill anyone is beyond bullshit. Especially when making preparations and building against situations like these.

No thought for HC population.

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Regulator wrote:

A fucking joke, game froze while doing the sins trial in act7. 67lvls of progress are now in standard, thx Obama. Had both pantheon powers that reduced dmg over time taken + 650regen. Interesting that if a freeze like that would have happened anywhere else up to a certain level i would have been well and alive.

Is it the fault of stupid mechanics? The fault of stupid game engine? The fault of stupid design? Or a combination of them?

GGG notice those things, and understand why the lab - with all the things mentioned here and elsewhere that make it a bad idea - is totally bullshit. The fact that a simple freeze (2-3 seconds and i instantly turned off the pc) can kill anyone is beyond bullshit. Especially when making preparations and building against situations like these.

No thought for HC population.

These things can happen anywhere, anytime. You can blame whoever you want, it's not going to change the fact it can still happen. This time you died in a trial, next could be a pack or boss in a map, or Shaper or Atziri. It doesn't mean any of those situations are a problem. The problem is the freeze in client. Stick to the core issue.

Sorry for your loss, I know how it feels and it sucks.

I think that lab reworks have done some good changes to the state of the laybrinth but overall the quality and the fun implied in running this mode is kinda low compared to the frenetic pace of the maps. Espcially uber can be kinda frustrating because a little distraction or a bad move can imply a total restart and this kinda of mechanics isn't the problem by itself but when combined with the cluncky animations the reactions times and some shit put there to just frustrate you, the lab starts to fell pretty boring and counter intuitive. Especially when you encounter traps that can not be anyway skipped or avoided, this kinda make exploration feel like a chore and the only reason you will explore is for getting treasure key. Everything else is pretty useless and skippable especially for pg builded for farming uber lab since now is a good viable way to farm some secure drops. Im kinda conflicted with the lab because a part of me like some of the mechanics but the fact that the same mechanichs are forced upon the player for the completation of the lab itsfel is kinda dull and bring me to the point where why the hell should a player be forced to run into traps instead of finding a way to avoid them? that's counterintuitive and takes away the fun that otherwise the lab could bring me. A nice way that the traps could be implemented is that of putting them in the shortest path. In this way people who would rush lab and get fast to itzaro for farming would be forced to use trap, but the people who like to explore and takes is time to exploring could find a lesser dangerous second path without any excessive trap tileset. In this way you accomplish two things the first is the ones who enjoys the trap system and it's way of working could be rewarded by taking the fastest path to itzaro, the other half who instead hates the traps could use a different path that would assure that they won't die to traps if they invest a good amount of time in finding the good passage. And i thinks this way makes more sense because traps should be used for barring main path and not here and there at random.