SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Xavathos wrote:

So you base your opinion on an entire game on content that makes up less than 5% of the game as a whole and 0% of that in the late game that you end up playing mostly?

Okay, that's enough information for me. Thanks.

It still is frustrating because you need to run it 8 to 12 times a season and you might like it but others find it boring.

Plus they started adding the dumb traps to maps as a minor nuisance, yea.

Over time it wears on you. Especially when it's time to make a new character and the initial fun of the new season is over.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Also, you supposedly "ascend" four times to receive your prestige class skills in an incremental way from a Goddess riding on some skeleton's shoulders. In contrast, you ascend once to Oriath at the end of act 4 to fight Gods directly and obtain a much smaller sampling of their power. Then you shift to maps and add to the collection of lesser abilities you obtained in Oriath, with no spillover to your prestige class skills, or vice versa.

Say what?

I don't think the process is really explained in enough detail to complain about the amount of sense it's making. Who knows, wouldn't you get better results if a god with powers of that sort willingly 'remodels' a mortal than by catching some stray fragment of its essence? I mean, how compatible is it with us anyway? We wouldn't need virtue gems as an intermediary if it worked well enough just like that.

Dunno if the whole thing would work better if it spilled more into maps. The pantheon offers a set of minor powerups which are hardly build defining for the most part, that kind of thing can stand the delay so the powerup process is extended. Something like last two lab points, few builds need them badly enough so you can wait until you gather all map trials and get strong enough to do it. So, you need prestige classes to do interesting things so it's probably better if the whole thing is more front-loaded.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

You're being obtuse by suggesting the ARPG genre has no boundaries. Lab is obviously and by design different from usual ARPG gameplay and it's the equivalent of rules lawyering to argue otherwise.

Did you like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light? They really stepped out of the usual formula and still made a good adventure puzzle game.

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The_Reporter wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

So you base your opinion on an entire game on content that makes up less than 5% of the game as a whole and 0% of that in the late game that you end up playing mostly?

Okay, that's enough information for me. Thanks.

Ascendancies ultimately affect 100% of character development and therefore 100% the game. That's what he's basing his opinion on.

Common sense is your friend. Find some.

The point he makes is regarding the Lab, not passives. You do the lab 0 times in your end-game gameplay, unless you choose to farm it. All you do is run it 4 times in total in early character development, IF YOU WISH TO HAVE THOSE PASSIVES. Otherwise you are absolutely free to ignore Lab all together.

You choose to want the rewards. That's on you alone and nobody forces it on you.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. How's that for common sense, buddy? :)

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Also, you supposedly "ascend" four times to receive your prestige class skills in an incremental way from a Goddess riding on some skeleton's shoulders. In contrast, you ascend once to Oriath at the end of act 4 to fight Gods directly and obtain a much smaller sampling of their power. Then you shift to maps and add to the collection of lesser abilities you obtained in Oriath, with no spillover to your prestige class skills, or vice versa.

Say what?

I don't think the process is really explained in enough detail to complain about the amount of sense it's making. Who knows, wouldn't you get better results if a god with powers of that sort willingly 'remodels' a mortal than by catching some stray fragment of its essence? I mean, how compatible is it with us anyway? We wouldn't need virtue gems as an intermediary if it worked well enough just like that.

Dunno if the whole thing would work better if it spilled more into maps. The pantheon offers a set of minor powerups which are hardly build defining for the most part, that kind of thing can stand the delay so the powerup process is extended. Something like last two lab points, few builds need them badly enough so you can wait until you gather all map trials and get strong enough to do it. So, you need prestige classes to do interesting things so it's probably better if the whole thing is more front-loaded.

The paragraph you're from which you're quoting focuses on the shaky nature of the lore.

Gems interact in all kinds of ways as a core part of the lore and the game. And yet, there are no synergies between Pantheon and prestige class skills beyond the math of more damage reduction of a particular type, for example, and no conflicts or tradeoffs. Pantheon and prestige class development occur entirely independently, which from a lore perspective seems rather odd.

Why would an elementalist get the same fire damage reduction while moving from Pantheon as a slayer? Why would a slayer with immunity to stun while leeching get exactly the same level of stun reduction as an elementalist? Why would a pathfinder not find a way to extract more benefits from periodic life flask refills than other prestige classes?

Start asking these kinds of questions and the patched together nature of the lore for having Pantheon and prestige classes entirely independent starts to become clear.

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Xavathos wrote:

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The_Reporter wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

So you base your opinion on an entire game on content that makes up less than 5% of the game as a whole and 0% of that in the late game that you end up playing mostly?

Okay, that's enough information for me. Thanks.

Ascendancies ultimately affect 100% of character development and therefore 100% the game. That's what he's basing his opinion on.

Common sense is your friend. Find some.

The point he makes is regarding the Lab, not passives. You do the lab 0 times in your end-game gameplay, unless you choose to farm it. All you do is run it 4 times in total in early character development, IF YOU WISH TO HAVE THOSE PASSIVES. Otherwise you are absolutely free to ignore Lab all together.

You choose to want the rewards. That's on you alone and nobody forces it on you.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. How's that for common sense, buddy? :)

I hear it can be quite a pain to find trials in maps to unlock uber lab, especially for SSF players.

I'm very glad to hear that trials for uber lab have been moved out of maps.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

I'm very glad to hear that trials for uber lab have been moved out of maps.

How badly do you want those last 2 points? What are you willing to do for them? Trials and uber Lab or not? Your choice, don't bother us with it. Just make a choice and enjoy the journey man. :)

Hard is subjective. SSF doesn't have any less of a chance to find trials in maps. It's exactly like everyone else.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Gems interact in all kinds of ways as a core part of the lore and the game. And yet, there are no synergies between Pantheon and prestige class skills beyond the math of more damage reduction of a particular type, for example, and no conflicts or tradeoffs. Pantheon and prestige class development occur entirely independently, which from a lore perspective seems rather odd.

Doesn't strike me as THAT odd, the Goddess of Justice takes the natural abilities and tendencies of a class to evolve them further, she's just a catalyst. Pantheon takes that sliver of a divine soul and grafts it onto you, it's really a craptoss if those should interact or not, if it was me I'd say no but I don't have any arguments against those that would say yes either.

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

You're being obtuse by suggesting the ARPG genre has no boundaries. Lab is obviously and by design different from usual ARPG gameplay and it's the equivalent of rules lawyering to argue otherwise.

Did you like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light? They really stepped out of the usual formula and still made a good adventure puzzle game.

I played Lara Croft in an earlier decade for about 10 minutes, stopped, and never looked at it again. I have no idea what you're asking about, so I can't offer an opinion.

The more general question you're posing about cross-genre games is still valid and relevant. I'd agree that cross-genre games can be good. And, lab is obviously and by design a cross-genre gaming experience.

Are you suggesting that lab, as designed and implemented, is an example of good cross-genre gameplay?

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Are you suggesting that lab, as designed and implemented, is an example of good cross-genre gameplay?

If we're talking about just traps then no, not really. It's the same reason why PvP was a flop in PoE, it has too many variables so they had to work with the lowest denominator which made the content fairly toothless if you know what you're doing.

So, traps don't work well if you're expecting a piece of content from another genre that should give you similar playing experience as the original. The whole package is pretty good, though, traps do give you a flavor that's different enough to be interesting (assuming you don't find it outright repulsive because your favorite puppy stepped into a boar trap and died when you were a kid), the multistage boss fight is unique and really well done, the whole thing is accessible regardless of buildtype/playstyle and it has a petty nice learning curve, first you suck and then get better once you've done it enough.

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Shovelcut wrote:

Fun fact, the most vocal 'quitters' are still here and still playing.

Fun fact, most quitters are not vocal because they have quitted.

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Shovelcut wrote:

Whether you want to admit it or not a significant portion of complainers fall into the l2p category.

I can do Merc lab or Trials just fine without problems. I did not try Uber lab yet, because I do not have good enough gear.
Yet I still find this platform game boring as hell.
Because in all labs traps do the same amount of damage, (apart Izaro which is a simple gear check) there is no big difference between Uber and Mercilles lab.

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Shovelcut wrote:

None of that matters because that's just not how the internet works

That's exactly how the internet works. If I have no problems with any other game/site/network connection, but PoE this is GGG's ISP fault, not mine. Or they do not have optimized network code, or not enough powerful servers.
BTW last weekend an error occurred which did not allowed to load 2nd trial. GG for those farming Uber that day.

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Shovelcut wrote:

I can honestly say that I get more pissed off getting disconnected in there than anywhere else and I really enjoy the laby. :)

So why do you care if AP are moved outside the lab? You are enjoing it anyway.