SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Pyrokar wrote:

Speaking of what ability thing? Come on man. Don't try to trigger people.
The solution to the problem you are referring to btw, is not the lab but rather reducing player damage or nerfing the xp in lower level red maps. Lab isn't hard. Confirmed by yours truly.

And what is it with you guys always assuming that strand maps are all we run or want to run? From what i recollect it was you and fruz that had no idea of what's going on in the highest level master missions. So how about you lay off the strands and frequent something harder?

It wasn't meant to trigger anyone, just saying it's a good thing that the game gives you a strong incentive to turn off the Path of Least Resistance. An average Joe will level in Dried lake up to 80 and then chain blue lowbies as fast as possible so his builds are often lopsided.

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mezmery wrote:

great success. you gathered 917 opinions.
for reference - legacy launch concurrent online was 150k users and 1st days unique player count somewhat closer to million.
also POE has about 20mil registred accounts.

so, at best, you represent a marginal sample that is orders of magnitude lesser than standart error for this amount of players.

I wonder how actually delusional you should be.

You have lots of great information on user numbers! Where did you get it? What is the percentage of active player accounts that have posted to the forum in the year and a half or so?

The only use that I have of the 917 account name list was fully satisfied long ago.

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Turtledove wrote:

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mezmery wrote:

great success. you gathered 917 opinions.
for reference - legacy launch concurrent online was 150k users and 1st days unique player count somewhat closer to million.
also POE has about 20mil registred accounts.

so, at best, you represent a marginal sample that is orders of magnitude lesser than standart error for this amount of players.

I wonder how actually delusional you should be.

You have lots of great information on user numbers! Where did you get it? What is the percentage of active player accounts that have posted to the forum in the year and a half or so?

The only use that I have of the 917 account name list was fully satisfied long ago.

False, you can't possibly know if they were fully satisfied or not, only that after X happened they wanted to post something negatively about the game, you don't know if they have problems with trade, player interaction or any of the number of other things people can complain about. Not only that not all of those names on your list have even played poe before the lab, are you really just making shit up at this point?


Just state what your list is, a waste of a year of your life for no gain or changes that you have been lobbying for.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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mezmery wrote:

great success. you gathered 917 opinions.
for reference - legacy launch concurrent online was 150k users and 1st days unique player count somewhat closer to million.
also POE has about 20mil registred accounts.

so, at best, you represent a marginal sample that is orders of magnitude lesser than standart error for this amount of players.

I wonder how actually delusional you should be.

You have lots of great information on user numbers! Where did you get it? What is the percentage of active player accounts that have posted to the forum in the year and a half or so?

The only use that I have of the 917 account name list was fully satisfied long ago.

False, you can't possibly know if they were fully satisfied or not, only that after X happened they wanted to post something negatively about the game, you don't know if they have problems with trade, player interaction or any of the number of other things people can complain about.


Just state what your list is, a waste of a year of your life for no gain or changes that you have been lobbying for.

Typical Goat post, false statement and then insults. The use of the list for me is documented in the list and OP of the list thread and it was fully satisfied long ago.

You posted in this thread before me and have spent about as much time as me posting, all in an apparent attempt to try to make sure that GGG doesn't "cave in to the crybabies' demands". Well they are caving. So it seems that you're the one that has wasted a year of your life in the labyrinth threads insulting and making false statements.

Some posts above got me thinking along this path... (not a direct reply to anyone, and following up on the line of reasoning I started in my last spoiler'ed section)

I've never played a shaped strand. Doesn't sound very fun to me, and I like efficiency and reaching my goals, but I won't disparage someone for finding it fun.

I run maps with as high monster pack size as possible or higher number of magic packs (they're worth more experience and are more interesting than the usually overly empty maps.) I like extra exiles and invasion bosses. The highest map tier I've had drop (I play SSF) is 7 I think (I may have used the sell-3-map method to get up to my tier 7 maps). (By the time I hit maps, my 4 base stash tabs are so full of items I want to bring with to standard when the league ends, that it becomes more a game of tetris and painful vendoring, than fun, and it kills my desire to continue playing)

My builds don't insta-wipe screens of enemies, usually flame totems these days, SSF, so... roughly 9k tooltip damage and at least one not-capped resist at any given time, with negative chaos resist. The best build I had at one time, was bladefall traps with 11k tooltip damage (could one-shot dried lake boss by the end of the league), but traps felt clunky and I was always running out of them when I needed them most. I constantly need to use my health potions, because my modes of attack generally cannot grant me life leech, so even if I found a powerful unique flask, I probably wouldn't use it. I've never played a Vaal Pact character with instant leech into maps (played around with an archer once and didn't like how it felt at low levels), and never played a fully ES character (tried to convert one of my standard characters on a passive tree reset once, and hated the feeling of energy shield having no life flasks).

I want to run more melee dual-wield type builds for the fun factor (I'd like to try bladeflury), but they're so gear-dependent that I often don't collect enough good gear as a SSF player (mainly weapons) to pass along to a second build during a league to make it workable. The new bosses look so... horrible for a melee, that I'm striking them off my list almost entirely for now. I hate how one cannot build strong enough defenses to face-tank stuff, and instead, you have to do these silly dances around bosses and their one-shot attacks - getting worse in 3.0 - a direction I distinctly dislike for many reasons (not just "oh no, hard stuff I can't deal with." More like "Oh no, not fun fights that will take forever and will be more running around than fighting." They might be fun for people who like space shooters.

I like archers too, but took a break from them for a bit to try totems and traps. I like how these methods of attack don't have to worry about reflect and corrupting blood. I like how totems can be run by Marauders and have access to lots of life and armor, compared to archers and trappers.

None of my builds have been copied from forum posts, and I've never traded for gear. So I've never played the OP meta clear-speed play style. I do not want the Labyrinth made to cater to a play style that I've never been a part of.

Labyrinth is just a consolidation of horrible gameplay trends that I hate from the pit of my stomach.
* One-hit (or nearly one-hit) kills (because they want to kill the nearly immortal insta-leechers that won't die unless you take all their life more instantly)

* Ignoring of defenses or defenses that don't "feel right" (like armor being nearly useless when you need it most - and trap percentage damage not really caring how much armor you have anyway) No matter how defensively I've built my characters, they all feel like their armor is wet paper - from my armored marauder to my swift archer, felt the same - I don't care what the numbers say, that's my experience with it. The Labyrinth just dials this horrible feeling to the max with traps blatantly ignoring armor.

* Flask mechanics are horribly designed for boss battles - refilling on kills... against one target... only On-crit and flask charge regen from Pathfinder seem remotely useful and are not universal gameplay mechanics on all flasks for every player. In the labyrinth, running out of flasks without monsters around, between trap gauntlets is just a horrible feeling. (also HP restoring flasks are woefully weak IMO, maybe that Kaom's life one that refills your life to full at the end of its duration might be good as a basic life flask...) I'd like to see more tactical ways to restore life during battle (not just flasks and insta-leech or tiny-life-gain-on-hit - like healing skills. People talk about "sustain" type stuff... and if that's all based on leech, I fear for creativity in games.) I'd like to see encounters become more engaging with skills and passives interacting, where damage you take isn't nearly lethal if you can counteract it in time, either by healing or putting up a shield (physical or skill-based) giving yourself time to heal, or drain it from the enemy, or ... so many other options, instead of one-hit-ko either way.

* Manually dodging damage that cannot be mitigated by your build. (especially against bosses) (what's the point of your build then, to mitigate the little hits that you don't care about anyway? All that matters to this avoidance gameplay is damage and movement speed, when you get down to it. So it's catering to either the super-speed glass-cannon instaleech builds or the other extreme of super regen tank - and this is situationally against the traps in labyrinth and Righteous Fire type builds, since you want a lot more damage against bosses.)

These are some of the trends I hate. They may not be entirely the "norm" currently, but the game is headed in this direction, and I want to stem that tide. It just so happens that the Labyrinth is all of these things in one horrible little package.

I'm not even covering all of the issues I have with it here. Just the biggest ones that came to mind when reading about people thinking everyone who loves the Labyrinth wants the game made super easy or somesuch nonsense. I want it to be more interesting and engaging and for your build to be taken into consideration more, instead of ignored for the sake of "fairness." (and yet being so unfair, IMO, it's funny)

IF the Labyrinth must stay as the method of gaining ascendancy points, I want the Labyrinth to be more PoE and less... this other junk that doesn't mesh with the original design of the game or ignores the rest of the game to use its own rules (masquerading as "challenge").

If the ascendancy points can be moved to more PoE-related content, all the better. (since some people like the current labyrinth, and I don't want to take that fun away from them)

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Zaludoz wrote:

These are some of the trends I hate. They may not be entirely the "norm" currently, but the game is headed in this direction, and I want to stem that tide.

I get you, Zaludoz, I really do. Ok, I might be a fan of manual dodging and fiddly skill setups more than you are but for the rest of it we're on a similar page. PoE we got now just isn't the one we were sold on in closed beta, it went some other way but the left fork was chosen long before the lab was even in the concept stage, it's late now, diddly-damn late.

As for the lab itself, it probably can't be helped if you're so averse to manual dodging, that's what it eats and shits. For me it's a part of the game I can still play instead of going through the motions, and it doesn't suffer from a few of those little issues the rest of the game has, I can appreciate that. Maybe that's the reason I'm not keen on farming it, I'm afraid it will become stale faster.

By the way, you saw that new bleed keystone? I suppose it's official, all these years they were trying to make bleed good and it seems they threw in the towel after all and made it just another poison. Yup, fast and furious ultimately stomped slow and deliberate into the dust. Disgusting.

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raics wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

Everquest had spells and abilities (mana regen) gated behind uber once a week end game bosses one guild could get.

Seems to be similar to that Lineage that mezmery mentioned then, you get a few final tweaks for endgame by running an uber boss, ok, that's kinda legit. Maybe similar to uber lab, you get those two last points for your Berserker, what I had in mind is that there isn't a game I can think of that would require doing something like that to become a Berserker.

If we're talking about a stretch goal that motivates people towards banding together, I suppose it does the job. I prefer the deal we got here and the whole thing depending on my own ability, but then again, it's a different kind of game, MMOs sell the social aspect and PoE is but marginally multiplayer oriented.

Speaking of that ability thing, saw a post today about a dude asking for help with uber lab, got himself all nice and cosy with 200k dps but apparently dies to a sneeze from Izaro because of a somewhat badly rolled Abyssus. If he took off the helm he'd do it easily even with half the dps lost and that's a good lesson right there, if you can chain strands it doesn't mean your setup is good.

No and this is kinda my point, it was a progression ladder. You needed the previous content to move to the next. The only way to get thru the content you were on was to be well geared and fast and willing to train other guilds WHILE killing the boss and handle being trained.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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mezmery wrote:

great success. you gathered 917 opinions.
for reference - legacy launch concurrent online was 150k users and 1st days unique player count somewhat closer to million.
also POE has about 20mil registred accounts.

so, at best, you represent a marginal sample that is orders of magnitude lesser than standart error for this amount of players.

I wonder how actually delusional you should be.

You have lots of great information on user numbers! Where did you get it? What is the percentage of active player accounts that have posted to the forum in the year and a half or so?

The only use that I have of the 917 account name list was fully satisfied long ago.

False, you can't possibly know if they were fully satisfied or not, only that after X happened they wanted to post something negatively about the game, you don't know if they have problems with trade, player interaction or any of the number of other things people can complain about. Not only that not all of those names on your list have even played poe before the lab, are you really just making shit up at this point?


Just state what your list is, a waste of a year of your life for no gain or changes that you have been lobbying for.

you sound like my friend where someone in the movie is shot in the head and falls down and is never seen again but you don't know he is dead.

Then again I suppose it's possible OJ is innocent.

And we don't know global warming is real.

If all you want to do is win an argument you can keep denying logical evidence but it's not true or helping.

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Fruz wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

I honestly have no idea what 'issue' you believe I have, apart from trying to understand whatever it is your saying. Moreover, I couldn't care less if killing Izaro an getting some Ascendency Points and other rewards is the same, in your mind, as killing TDoTD, The simple fact is, this thread is not about the rewards it's about how they're obtained. Continuing to harp on about carrots and sticks is completely meaningless.

Well, we don't really have an issue with it, you do. The point of all that carrot&stick talk, in case it wasn't clear enough so far, is that the game doesn't necessarily have to be fun all the way for everyone, that isn't the way it works. It would be ideal if it was so but it isn't a hard requirement as long as you have other elements that keep people in the game, I don't think it's even possible, honestly.

Exactly, we do not have an issue with x or y being a carrot on a stick.
However, using such a thing to try to find arguments against the lab :

Spoiler

Regardless, with the exception of a minority, who may actually have left because of the inclusion of the lab, I would make an educated guess, based of reading numerous PoE related forums, that the majority of those running the lab, do so, simply because they have to, to acquire the Ascendancy points.

just does not hold water, to use your own expression.

Really! you're still banging on about carrots and sticks!

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And yes, it is somewhat fallacious.

Already covered this too.

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Kellog wrote:

If you say something to me I'm obliged to answer. If that means explaining why something is a thing, then so be it.

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You could make it clear and somewhat quick though.

If you're finding things hard to understand, stop reading.

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And no, not everyone in this thread, there are couple of individuals in the forums that I know of, especially here, that seem to have (for some, recurring) some understanding troubles, that are missing causalities for example.

"Missing causalities" If you insist, lol! By the way, you're projecting again.

We also know most people dislike the lab or they would show numbers to the contrary. They are happy to post good things.