SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

The late argument regarding the time spend, it was related to whether or not boredom kicks in ...


That other guy was just saying "people do it because they have to !", which is itself is a really stupid argument if you want to "attack" the lab, because that's basically what most of the storyline is at this point, for many veteran players (most I guess, from what I've read here).

PS : Hahahaha, the "actually they're not mandatory, but only when it's convenient to my argument" is golden.
The optional skill points are purely carrots on stick, ( unless when discovering the game the first time maybe ), nothing more, just like the lab is, period.
Whatever you might add will not change that in anyway.
The failure to actually understand sarcasm is also very strong, whatever lol, I guess at this point, laughing is the best thing to do.

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raics wrote:

I wonder if they managed to pull that off to a satisfactory level. Which carrot are you having fun chasing? I kinda like Talisman myself, but it probably wouldn't hit too far off the mark if we said that the better part of the playerbase despises it because it's way too farmy.

I don't care about "farmy". I don't care about doing things over and over again, as long as we're talking about the reasons why I am here in the first place: ARPG elements. And I don't feel that the lab touches enough of that element (subjectively, in my eyes, so don't bother debating that) to appeal to me.

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Phrazz wrote:

I don't care about "farmy". I don't care about doing things over and over again, as long as we're talking about the reasons why I am here in the first place: ARPG elements.

Well, I was asking which carroty part of PoE has enough of that ARPG juice to make you like it, subjectively of course.

For instance, I've spent most of my time in legacy league with both of my characters farming talismans. You could really notice that not enough people do it because Holds were pretty scarce on the market and farming higher uniques was profitable so a few people would scoop the cheap ones up and you had to work fast. Anyway, by the end of my involvement there I had five t3 hierarchy sets to go for unique Greatwolf aaand... drumroll... got nothing for all that trouble.

Dunno how would I rate all that, really, I suppose it depends how much is trading and talisman level managing considered a legit ARPG element. Sure, I didn't manage to get a Greatwolf and that's probably the part that gets people hating talisman, but I think it was still pretty fun overall.

I too like talismans a lot, like a lot, and i spent hours of farming and grinding for them. Thats the awesome part though, i dont have to, its just i enjoy it. Like i enjoy farming redblade warbands, or farming prophecies.

I don't like for example the tempest so much cause it causes lag, even the more rewarding/better ones. I don't like perandus mod too for the same reason, but because it also ruined part of the game i was enjoying too.

But look at all of them, they are all places and mods to spent your time as you see fit, not a single one is required for your character progression, and that is why nobody is complaining about them. They are side areas to farm that's all, and even more all of them follow basic ARPG rules and design. Farming and Grinding is part of arpgs, and trading is part of online games.

On the other hand lab tries to do that, but also gates character progression. Lab is already way more rewarding than any of the above, but GGG decided (once again) to add more rewards in it, why haven't they put more rewards or expanded the loot table of warbands? why haven't they added new tempests? why not new beyond demons? why no more loot in atziri? Cause they don't feel they need to sugarcoat those events/mods/areas for people to actually run them, cause people are running them besides the considerably less rewards compared to lab, but they beat it in the fun department by a lot, like a lot.

Whoever cant see that they are trying since day 1 to persuade people with whatever they can to run the lab is just unrealistic. And its the part of the game that people shouldn't even been having complaints about right? Since you know ascendancies are there plus all the goodies etc. But that's exactly the reason its so hated, besides it trying to do so much and fulfill so many roles (pvpve/racing/farming/character progression/fun - I'm not sure about the last one its hard to imagine it) it also has obvious non ARPG elements and on top of that mechanics there ignore completely your character choices. How more obvious can something be to simply see it for what it actually is?

And again I'm putting the quote from "Fundamentals of Game Design" that many willfully ignored :

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You can't make a game that appeal's to action fans, to strategy fans and fans of management simulations by combining Kung Fu, chess and Monopoly- the result would be a mess that appeals to none of them. On the other hand you can include a storyline in a fighting game, so long as the storyline doesn't interfere with the gameplay. The storyline adds depth to the game without driving away its key-market of fighting enthusiasts, and it might attract the interest of who otherwise wouldn't pay any attention to a fighting game

#FeelsLabMan

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Regulator wrote:

I too like talismans a lot, like a lot, and i spent hours of farming and grinding for them. Thats the awesome part though, i dont have to, its just i enjoy it. Like i enjoy farming redblade warbands, or farming prophecies.

Eh, dunno if I'd go that far myself. The whole deal is cool, you do some farming, some trading, some micromanagement, some boss killing, a bit of gambling, you get excited for the big one and feel the rush if you get it, or disappointment if not.

But would I do it if there was no chance for the mad loot? Nope.

It's very similar to the lab for me, I don't farm it much but as an ascension method I feel that the entire package is solid.

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raics wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

I don't care about "farmy". I don't care about doing things over and over again, as long as we're talking about the reasons why I am here in the first place: ARPG elements.

Well, I was asking which carroty part of PoE has enough of that ARPG juice to make you like it, subjectively of course.

For instance, I've spent most of my time in legacy league with both of my characters farming talismans. You could really notice that not enough people do it because Holds were pretty scarce on the market and farming higher uniques was profitable so a few people would scoop the cheap ones up and you had to work fast. Anyway, by the end of my involvement there I had five t3 hierarchy sets to go for unique Greatwolf aaand... drumroll... got nothing for all that trouble.

Dunno how would I rate all that, really, I suppose it depends how much is trading and talisman level managing considered a legit ARPG element. Sure, I didn't manage to get a Greatwolf and that's probably the part that gets people hating talisman, but I think it was still pretty fun overall.

The thing is, in my eyes, if the journey is fun and interesting in itself, it's much more acceptable with «bad RNG at the end», the journey doesn't feel wasted, because it gave me entertainment during the hunt. If that entertainment is «regualar» gameplay, so be it. That gameplay is why we are, most of us anyway.

The lab fail in that regard, again, in my eyes. The journey doesn't give me anything. It becomes a «the carrot is everythin» kind of «challenge», which some player are fine with, some are not.

And players that are fine with doing «boring» and, in my eyes, «bad content» just because the rewards are good? I fail to «respect» SOME OF their arguments on that same content. Because it's just a means to an end for them. But for others, that want to enjoy the journey, it becomes a... Cyst.

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Phrazz wrote:

The thing is, in my eyes, if the journey is fun and interesting in itself, it's much more acceptable with «bad RNG at the end», the journey doesn't feel wasted, because it gave me entertainment during the hunt. If that entertainment is «regualar» gameplay, so be it. That gameplay is why we are, most of us anyway.

What would be your example of a good content required to earn the carrot, then? It doesn't have to be from PoE.

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raics wrote:

What would be your example of a good content required to earn the carrot, then? It doesn't have to be from PoE.

We wouldn't be here, if we didn't like farming. I could've farmed the end of the world for the AP. They could've been implemented on the Atlas is some way, just like the Shaper's Orbs. But it's a little late for that now, I guess.

We wouldn't be here, if we didn't like boss fights. They could've developed some kind of "Arena mode", letting you fight against several bosses in the arena, letting you earn your points. But it's a little late for that now, I guess

No matter HOW you turn, pull, push and rewind, traps ARE associated with platform games. Trap gameplay are something a lot of us feel doesn't belong in this genre - and certainly not a whole, themed part of the game built around them. Are we correct? There is no "correct" on that matter. They HAD to know that this would be "controversial", and no matter if we're talking minority, majority, whining and QQ, the lab content WAS and IS controversial in some sense.

Do I respect them for trying something new? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Do I respect them for the lack of numbers and information on how many players are racing the lab, running the lab for lab only uniques and so on? No. Do I respect them for the amount of feedback regarding all the critique about the lab? No. Classifying "us" as a "loud, vocal minority" isn't helping anyone. Show us numbers.

Am I basing anything on the forums? No. I know that A LOT of players from all three guild I've been a member of, dislike the lab. I know all 4 of the streamers I "follow", dislike it. "Toxic" is a word used by more than one of them.

But hey, I'm sure the lab is a 90% success. I'm sure the "majority" of players finds it fun as hell. After all, everybody that hates it, is a "vocal minority".

I've only read about their 3.0 plans for the lab. Seems to me like they're listening. It's still there... but they're listening. Glad to see they're making it more "at level" instead of pretty much requiring us to over level it. Traps suck... but once you learn them, they're inconsequential unless you simply insist on running into them.

Trials suck. Still do. But they're cutting them down. Should be entirely optional. Maybe someday.

Would still like to see some way to ascend without dealing with the lab, but pretty sure that's not going to happen. Maybe 4.0. Who can tell.

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Phrazz wrote:

We wouldn't be here, if we didn't like farming. I could've farmed the end of the world for the AP. They could've been implemented on the Atlas is some way, just like the Shaper's Orbs. But it's a little late for that now, I guess.

We wouldn't be here, if we didn't like boss fights. They could've developed some kind of "Arena mode", letting you fight against several bosses in the arena, letting you earn your points. But it's a little late for that now, I guess

Right, that's pretty much a no-brainer. Honestly, not sure if I want them to learn from this whole lab situation or not, if there's a lesson in it to learn it would be that PoE playerbase in the end of ends just wants a spoonful more of the same. Who knows, if they knew that from the start maybe this would be just a carbon copy of D2 with prettier graphics.

And maybe they did learn, Atlas was playing it as safe as it can possibly get and it seems the Pantheon system isn't trying anything revolutionary either.