SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Kellog wrote:

Unless they decide to make that telemetry public, you know as much as me.

Indeed, and we both know that they have much more that we do.
That's the only point about that.
They do have some data, and we basically don't.

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Fruz wrote:

The sample set is valid within the cautionary perimeters.

The equation only uses two figures. One would presumably be available to GGG and we've been using the hypothetical value of 0.5% for the percentage of active players that have posted in the forums over the past 16 months for this figure. The other figure is 914 account names from the account name list. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 910 posters in support

I listed the potential issues about the sample set that made it differ from the whole population. Let me relist them here for everyone's convenience.

What are the potential cautionary issues with using all posters to the forum as a sample set for the general population of PoE players?

- Casual players are much less likely to post on the forum than more dedicated more frequent players.

- Forum posters are more likely more skilled at playing PoE than the more casual players that don't post.

- Forum posters are more likely to donate/buy points from GGG.

- People could create a GGG account and post about PoE without ever playing the game. (Highly unlikely in my opinion. This one would probably skew the number more to the pro-lab side anyway.)

- Any others?

What are the potential cautionary issues with the list of 914 names?

- Some complainers may have had their only complaint(s) resolved, e.g., 60% ES or too many trials.

- People have posted in the forums and have problems with labyrinth but still never voiced their opinion on it.

- People have posted in the forums that they have a dislike for the labyrinth but haven't been put on the list. (Especially true posted outside Feedback and Suggestions forum.)

- People could create multiple alt-accounts and post their dislike for labyrinth. (Not apparently really a widespread problem based on the number of old accounts created prior to labyrinth being over 96% of the 914 names on the list.)

- Perhaps I'm just lying about everything and the list is totally fake? (Zaludos made the original list at 582 names. I've tried to be extremely transparent by posting details of almost everyone I've added to the list at the time when I add them. Some pro-lab posters have done some verification of the list on their own in the past and their posts are referenced in the OP of the list thread.)

- What else?

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Fruz wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

If people can't be bothered to come here and voice their opinion, then it's fine ( unless they quit, but the game's population has recently been pretty good, so ... )

...

Let's look at the facts :
Since the lab has been introcued, the game's player base has grown bigger.
We can end the story there I guess.

To suggest the addition of the lab is in some way responsible for any growth in the player base is questionable at best.

I didn't, because it's not relevant.

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Let's look at the facts :
Since the lab has been introcued, the game's player base has grown bigger.

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Most people do kill Nightmarish piety because they want to access to the next act.

Irrelevant. If people don't clear the Act boss the game ends there.

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Most people do liberate deshret because they want an extra skill point.

Irrelevant. Taking a couple or minutes to acquire a skill point, that's actually on the way to the Act end, is a completely different scenario to running the lab(s)

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Those are also brilliant educated guesses, aren't they ?

Not really.

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Almost everything in this game is driven because of a carot on a stick.

That doesn't make the lab right.

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Turtledove wrote:

- Any others?

Not everyone will post to the English version of this forum and even if they can speak English, quite often Reddit is a preferred medium. There are also both English and non-English speaking community forums, for PoE, all over the place. I would also guess (I don't Facebook/VK) Social media is well used for these discussions too.

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Turtledove wrote:

- Any others?

Obviously, what we have been saying for pages (conveniently trying to avoid reading half of those pages' content, or conveniently trying to forget it there, heh ? ):
- people disliking something are much, much more likely to come and voice their opinion here (then people that do not dislike it of course, or could not be bothered). And this would appear to be a rough estimate of a 1/25th of the playerbase only.

This alone, makes your "estimate" completely invalid.

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Kellog wrote:

Irrelevant. If people don't clear the Act boss the game ends there.

Your statement is irrelevant here, not the other way around.
If you consider the AC points mandatory (like basically all QQers have been doing from the very start, when it was very very questionable), then please at least, have a little bit of honesty and consider it as such here as well, not only when it's convenient to you.

The carot on a stick is why people do stuff in the game, labyrinth included, that's all there is to it.
Same for deshret, carrot + stick = people do stuff, not necessarily because they like it.
The time it takes here is also irrelevant to the point.

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Kellog wrote:

(quote]Those are also brilliant educated guesses, aren't they ?

Not really.[/quote]
Are you telling me that you didn't spot the sarcasm at all, or that you didn't understand that those "brilliant educated guess" where put in parralel to yours ?

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Fruz wrote:

I was only writing from a phone as I sometimes do, there was nothing like a personality change.

Do you have a video proof of that?

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Fruz wrote:

They do have some data, and we basically don't.

Some data =/= relevant data (at least when collecting feedback is the matter).
You simply do not understand it.

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Nishrek wrote:

Some data =/= relevant data (at least when collecting feedback is the matter).
You simply do not understand it.

Since you do in fact, have absolutely nothing, what they have is far more relevant than what you ( in fact, we ) have.
And they can extrapolate because they have something : you can't.

You simply cannot understand it I guess.
You have basically nothing.
Which is not the case of GGG.


PS : the previous 'example' of data that they could have/use (data that they could definitely extract from game logs if they want to, in the somewhat strange case where they would not be monitoring those somehow) was also to point out how they could use data.
You would know if you had read it.

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Fruz wrote:

Your statement is irrelevant here, not the other way around.
If you consider the AC points mandatory (like basically all QQers have been doing from the very start, when it was very very questionable), then please at least, have a little bit of honesty and consider it as such here as well, not only when it's convenient to you.

It's completely relevant. If I don't finish an Act, the Ascendancy points won't matter one way or the other. as the the game will be effectively over. On the other hand, whilst virtually everyone would like the Ascendancy points and most now consider them integral to any build, they're still not mandatory.

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The carot on a stick is why people do stuff in the game, labyrinth included, that's all there is to it.
Same for deshret, carrot + stick = people do stuff, not necessarily because they like it.

I don't imagine many familiar with arpg type games consider 'carrot and stick' type game play anything but natural. However, collecting a point on the way to Act end is a completely different prospect to specifically leaving the game to spend time running a side show. Especially when said excursion is tedious and not terribly enjoyable.

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The time it takes here is also irrelevant to the point.

Of course it isn't.

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Are you telling me that you didn't spot the sarcasm at all, or that you didn't understand that those "brilliant educated guess" where put in parralel to yours ?

your 'educated guess'

I would make an educated guess, based of reading numerous PoE related forums, that the majority of those running the lab, do so, simply because they have to, to acquire the Ascendancy points.

You're attempt at sarcasm wasn't missed, it just didn't warrant a comment other than the one I gave. Moreover, I wouldn't really consider your statements "brilliant educated guesses" more like poorly considered examples to justify your perspective.

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Fruz wrote:

The carot on a stick is why people do stuff in the game, labyrinth included, that's all there is to it.
Same for deshret, carrot + stick = people do stuff, not necessarily because they like it.
The time it takes here is also irrelevant to the point.

Are you trying to tell us that the time spent is irrelevant, after all those posts of yours about "less than ten minutes" and "boring has everything to do about time spent"? Come on. Additionally, yes, "carrot on a stick" is an important element of every ARPG. But when you "have to do things you do not like" to eat some of the carrot, the taste of it becomes somewhat bad.

Like I've said several times before; the hunt for a carrot can be fun, challenging, interesting AND hard. But the moment a player is perfectly fine with doing things he doesn't like at all, is the moment his views on the content becomes irrelevant.

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Phrazz wrote:

Like I've said several times before; the hunt for a carrot can be fun, challenging, interesting AND hard. But the moment a player is perfectly fine with doing things he doesn't like at all, is the moment his views on the content becomes irrelevant.

I wonder if they managed to pull that off to a satisfactory level. Which carrot are you having fun chasing? I kinda like Talisman myself, but it probably wouldn't hit too far off the mark if we said that the better part of the playerbase despises it because it's way too farmy.