SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]
I know some think it's some kind of mental feat to clear traps, but I feel my intelligence is being insulted with the addition of this simple arcade crap.
it is some thing new and tasty for arpg that GGG bring to this game
Do not take it wrong but if you believe recycled content from the 80' and 90' is new then you obviously lack the experience/age to know better, in any case its not your fault, but GGG's for serving something like this as new and refreshing. Also if the A in the ARPG you used means Arcade then yes GGG nailed it, if you wanted to refer to the Action RPG genre, then no labyrinth has almost nothing to do with it.
I truly believe that the whole labyrinth thing was a very bold move by GGG and they deserve praise for the initiative, but the implementation and the final result reek of failure.
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Vortextreme wrote:
I know some think it's some kind of mental feat to clear traps, but I feel my intelligence is being insulted with the addition of this simple arcade crap.
What can i say, they also think that the complaints are because its difficult/we cant do it, no matter if that is as far fetched as it gets. Some people like to believe in illusions/fair tales i guess.
Wow. So many in this thread either didn't bother to read the initial post or have serious reading comprehension skills. "OP wants something for nothing hurr durr..." What is wrong with you people?
OP, I have to disagree with your suggestion in favor of my own:
1. Keep the Labyrinths tied to Ascendancy. So much work was put into the atmosphere, writing, voice acting, etc. It would be a waste to decouple them. And it would be seriously demotivating to the people at GGG.
2. Remove the traps from the labyrinth.
3. Make the labyrinths harder.
Ascendancy is unique among expansions in that it is the first one that encourages players to SKIP the new content. That's right: It's more profitable (and a hell of a lot safer) to take shortcuts, use movement skills to cheese past the traps, and not engage any of the optional content on the way to Izaro.
Contrast this with maps (or any other area of the game, really), where the more you explore, the more rewards you get. Yes, yes, bosses are pinatas, I grant. But not to any extreme extent; the drops you get on the way to a boss are almost always just as good.
This is a BIG problem. Any content that discourages you from playing it is, almost by definition, poorly designed content.
GGG could fix this REALLY easily, without wasting too much of the effort they already put in by
A) Removing the traps. The traps are what is driving people away from the game.
B) Making the labyrinth more labyrinth-y. Right now the labyrinths are way too easy to navigate. Just hug the right wall, and before you know it, you made it to Izaro. Keys are rarely needed, and I rarely encounter the (fun!) puzzles.
The labyrinth needs to be made harder. More keys, more locked doors, more non-optional puzzles.
And remove the fucking traps. They encourage cheese (movement skills), piss off your playerbase, and--for the few people who enjoy them--don't add all that much.
Finally, set the area before each Izaro encounter to lock a player to that location (as if it is an Act location), so that players who get disconnected will automatically be sent there once they rejoin the game.
It's actually not that hard or complicated to fix. GGG just needs to swallow its collective pride and DO it.
Wow. So many in this thread either didn't bother to read the initial post or have serious reading comprehension skills. "OP wants something for nothing hurr durr..." What is wrong with you people?
OP, I have to disagree with your suggestion in favor of my own:
1. Keep the Labyrinths tied to Ascendancy. So much work was put into the atmosphere, writing, voice acting, etc. It would be a waste to decouple them. And it would be seriously demotivating to the people at GGG.
2. Remove the traps from the labyrinth.
3. Make the labyrinths harder.
Ascendancy is unique among expansions in that it is the first one that encourages players to SKIP the new content. That's right: It's more profitable (and a hell of a lot safer) to take shortcuts, use movement skills to cheese past the traps, and not engage any of the optional content on the way to Izaro.
Contrast this with maps (or any other area of the game, really), where the more you explore, the more rewards you get. Yes, yes, bosses are pinatas, I grant. But not to any extreme extent; the drops you get on the way to a boss are almost always just as good.
This is a BIG problem. Any content that discourages you from playing it is, almost by definition, poorly designed content.
GGG could fix this REALLY easily, without wasting too much of the effort they already put in by
A) Removing the traps. The traps are what is driving people away from the game.
B) Making the labyrinth more labyrinth-y. Right now the labyrinths are way too easy to navigate. Just hug the right wall, and before you know it, you made it to Izaro. Keys are rarely needed, and I rarely encounter the (fun!) puzzles.
The labyrinth needs to be made harder. More keys, more locked doors, more non-optional puzzles.
And remove the fucking traps. They encourage cheese (movement skills), piss off your playerbase, and--for the few people who enjoy them--don't add all that much.
Finally, set the area before each Izaro encounter to lock a player to that location (as if it is an Act location), so that players who get disconnected will automatically be sent there once they rejoin the game.
It's actually not that hard or complicated to fix. GGG just needs to swallow its collective pride and DO it.
Not a bad suggestion actually, if you/we can refine it a bit ill put it in the OP as well. I see 1-2 issues though : Removing traps (while im 100% against that playstyle) will cause many players to bash on the decision (comments like : game too ez, game casual noobs etc) like we are bashing now for them being a mandatory part of the way to get the Ascendancy. Adding more mandatory puzzles/golden doors will mean that enchants will be fucked up, cause due to backtracking it will be way too time wasting to run for them as they are now. The latter issue could be fixed if the enchant system was made smarter and not completely based on RNG. I kinda agree that removing the AC points from lab would mean that 90% of the people wont even care to step in there, but on the other hand thats what optional means, like Atziri now, only 5-10% of the total playerbase (and im beeing generous here) farm her regularly.
Wow. So many in this thread either didn't bother to read the initial post or have serious reading comprehension skills. "OP wants something for nothing hurr durr..." What is wrong with you people?
OP, I have to disagree with your suggestion in favor of my own:
1. Keep the Labyrinths tied to Ascendancy. So much work was put into the atmosphere, writing, voice acting, etc. It would be a waste to decouple them. And it would be seriously demotivating to the people at GGG.
2. Remove the traps from the labyrinth.
3. Make the labyrinths harder.
Ascendancy is unique among expansions in that it is the first one that encourages players to SKIP the new content. That's right: It's more profitable (and a hell of a lot safer) to take shortcuts, use movement skills to cheese past the traps, and not engage any of the optional content on the way to Izaro.
Contrast this with maps (or any other area of the game, really), where the more you explore, the more rewards you get. Yes, yes, bosses are pinatas, I grant. But not to any extreme extent; the drops you get on the way to a boss are almost always just as good.
This is a BIG problem. Any content that discourages you from playing it is, almost by definition, poorly designed content.
GGG could fix this REALLY easily, without wasting too much of the effort they already put in by
A) Removing the traps. The traps are what is driving people away from the game.
B) Making the labyrinth more labyrinth-y. Right now the labyrinths are way too easy to navigate. Just hug the right wall, and before you know it, you made it to Izaro. Keys are rarely needed, and I rarely encounter the (fun!) puzzles.
The labyrinth needs to be made harder. More keys, more locked doors, more non-optional puzzles.
And remove the fucking traps. They encourage cheese (movement skills), piss off your playerbase, and--for the few people who enjoy them--don't add all that much.
Finally, set the area before each Izaro encounter to lock a player to that location (as if it is an Act location), so that players who get disconnected will automatically be sent there once they rejoin the game.
It's actually not that hard or complicated to fix. GGG just needs to swallow its collective pride and DO it.
This is a great idea. Something like this would make POE great again and bring me back to POE. I would really enjoy running labyrinth if it actually involved puzzles and mystery ect.
Playing frogger traps is stupid, boring and the opposite of fun. I hated frogger as a kid, and i still hate frogger.
Last edited by Khoranth#3239 on May 6, 2016, 7:54:49 AM
I agree that rewarding skipping content is not good design. I also agree that Labyrinth encourages us to skip content to get to the end rewards.
Removing traps would make running Lab much less tedious. That alone would be a very large step forward in making the game as a more enjoyable for many. But, as Regulator points out, making Lab an even bigger maze would be punishing for those running to get enchants. That fact underscores how removing traps is not enough of a change, on its own, to change the underlying dynamic of being rewarded for skipping content when running Lab.
To change that dynamic, at least for enchants, there needs to be possibilities to reduce the range of RNG when getting enchants when you complete certain challenges in the Labyrinth. For example, defeat a sub-boss and you get to specify a category from within which the enchant will be selected. There are a lot of possibilities for making Lab content rewarding, once adjustments to enchant RNG are part of the conversation.
There is another issue, though, with making Lab an even bigger maze and keeping AC in Lab. Doing that would make Lab ... an even bigger maze. For many, running a big multi-zone maze isn't fun. At all. And, for those trying to ascend, an even bigger maze just means an even bigger reward for finding ways to minimize time spent in the maze. Ergo, the underlying dynamic of rewarding players for skipping content would remain very much in place and would actually be reinforced by gating AC behind an even bigger maze.
In the end, I think Labyrinth was a huge misfire by GGG. To make it better, it's probably necessary to make it less of what it was intended to be, as long as Ascendancy is attached to the Lab.
Now that prestige classes will finally leave lab in 4.0, will GGG get it right this time or will they find new ways to repeat old mistakes?
I agree that rewarding skipping content is not good design. I also agree that Labyrinth encourages us to skip content to get to the end rewards.
Removing traps would make running Lab much less tedious. That alone would be a very large step forward in making the game as a more enjoyable for many. But, as Regulator points out, making Lab an even bigger maze would be punishing for those running to get enchants. That fact underscores how removing traps is not enough of a change, on its own, to change the underlying dynamic of being rewarded for skipping content when running Lab.
To change that dynamic, at least for enchants, there needs to be possibilities to reduce the range of RNG when getting enchants when you complete certain challenges in the Labyrinth. For example, defeat a sub-boss and you get to specify a category from within which the enchant will be selected. There are a lot of possibilities for making Lab content rewarding, once adjustments to enchant RNG are part of the conversation.
There is another issue, though, with making Lab an even bigger maze and keeping AC in Lab. Doing that would make Lab ... an even bigger maze. For many, running a big multi-zone maze isn't fun. At all. And, for those trying to ascend, an even bigger maze just means an even bigger reward for finding ways to minimize time spent in the maze. Ergo, the underlying dynamic of rewarding players for skipping content would remain very much in place and would actually be reinforced by gating AC behind an even bigger maze.
In the end, I think Labyrinth was a huge misfire by GGG. To make it better, it's probably necessary to make it less of what it was intended to be, as long as Ascendancy is attached to the Lab.
OR increase how many enchants you get per lab run. If lab is bigger, get more enchants at the end
I agree that rewarding skipping content is not good design. I also agree that Labyrinth encourages us to skip content to get to the end rewards.
Removing traps would make running Lab much less tedious. That alone would be a very large step forward in making the game as a more enjoyable for many. But, as Regulator points out, making Lab an even bigger maze would be punishing for those running to get enchants. That fact underscores how removing traps is not enough of a change, on its own, to change the underlying dynamic of being rewarded for skipping content when running Lab.
To change that dynamic, at least for enchants, there needs to be possibilities to reduce the range of RNG when getting enchants when you complete certain challenges in the Labyrinth. For example, defeat a sub-boss and you get to specify a category from within which the enchant will be selected. There are a lot of possibilities for making Lab content rewarding, once adjustments to enchant RNG are part of the conversation.
There is another issue, though, with making Lab an even bigger maze and keeping AC in Lab. Doing that would make Lab ... an even bigger maze. For many, running a big multi-zone maze isn't fun. At all. And, for those trying to ascend, an even bigger maze just means an even bigger reward for finding ways to minimize time spent in the maze. Ergo, the underlying dynamic of rewarding players for skipping content would remain very much in place and would actually be reinforced by gating AC behind an even bigger maze.
In the end, I think Labyrinth was a huge misfire by GGG. To make it better, it's probably necessary to make it less of what it was intended to be, as long as Ascendancy is attached to the Lab.
OR increase how many enchants you get per lab run. If lab is bigger, get more enchants at the end
This would leave the "skip content, get rewarded" dynamic mentioned earlier very much place.
Now that prestige classes will finally leave lab in 4.0, will GGG get it right this time or will they find new ways to repeat old mistakes?
I just completed the labyrinth so now (according to Goetzjam) my feedback is valid. My feedback is that labyrinth is boring tedious and not fun.
Well now its more relevant, it still doesn't change the fact that the poll is really useless information.
Could you go into more details of why you don't like the lab?
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In the end, I think Labyrinth was a huge misfire by GGG. To make it better, it's probably necessary to make it less of what it was intended to be, as long as Ascendancy is attached to the Lab.
Why would they do that though, you are suggesting the lab be changed to be less of an issue for people like you, but sacrificing the game design and making it worst for the people that do enjoy it in the process.
Ascendancy must remain in the lab, there isn't a question about that. The only thing that I think would be ok is a way to navigate the lab via puzzles or similar, instead of dealing with traps, but the issue with that is it will take a lot more work in order to make the lab passable by just utilizing some puzzles\traps.
As for people that keep repeating the same stupid shit like "it doesn't fit", I've given multiple examples of how it does and how similar games in this genre has very similar mechanics.
