SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

*facepalm* Yeah this is pointless. I don't know what you're talking about, I just used the percentage you threw out there hence why I quoted just that part. The point I was trying to make is that none of your figures are correct because the poll you're referring to is absolutely meaningless.

Good luck with your agenda, I'm outta here. :)

So he takes the poll and then "trims down the results" himself and thinks he can apply that to a larger group of people.

FailFish

Your argument, as I understand it, is that the straw poll is biased because it is not a random sampling of the PoE player population. Because of people going to Feedback and Suggestions having a higher inclination of being in the dislike labyrinth category. I eliminated those people (along with others I argue) by eliminating those people that voted in the poll against labyrinth either a 1 or a 2. We eliminate them and still get 40% of the population disliking labyrinth. Which is a very significant percentage.

It seems that you can't believe such a high percentage? do the same calculation after deleting the top 3 categories if you want. It is still going to be a significant percentage. Sorry Geotzjam, but that is just the way it is whether you like it or not.

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goetzjam wrote:

you can't take a poll that is specifically targeted at one audience and apply it to a larger scope as if it were fact, because it simply isn't the case.

Specifically target towards what audience? That poll and the opening post in that thread are as neutral as it can possibly be. As you said yes the people who are lurking at feedback might be a bit biased towards that matter but that does not mean that lab-lovers and neutral players dont visit this subforum too. And that is why our conclusion is ofcourse not accurate. Is it 100% representative of the lab situation, ofcourse not, the total number of votes is way to small, BUT, you can safely say that there are quite a few that are annoyed by the lab. The average joe would just multiply all votes/percentages to the actual hypothetical total number of poe players and come to an utterly stupid conclusion cause lets face it, since we dont have accurate numbers we cant estimate shit. I think we agree in that 100%. Right?

We can though make a solid guess with what we have available in our hands. Since GGG refuses to show us some statistics (like those of the second week) the second best thing we can do is gather what information we have and analyze it with caution. Thats what turtledove tried to do, but he is biased too. And while it was a mistake to apply the results in a much greater scale, it wouldnt be surpirsing if the actual total number of haters is around 15-25% of the playerbase.

If the average casual player cared enough to share his opinion on the matter things could have been a lot better. As it is now we mostly have us the haters and you the lovers for information and thats sadly is also not accurate

A while ago based on the leaderboards and the steamcharts plus the fact that the standalone client has around 10x times the players in steam, i came to a raw 100% NOT ACCURATE conclusion, but the most reasonable i could make with what info we have, that the percentage of lab lovers (players in the leaderboards) to total players now, is very similar to the percentage of pvpers during the pvp season. Again i know firsthand that the numbers are way off, but with the information that is provided to us its the best we can do



So we can agree that those polls/numbers/percentages are 100% inaccurate and in no way representative of the situation, but please DO NOT disregard them completely. Even if they are way off they are the best estimation we can make regarding the whole situation with what information we have. Disregarding them completely is worse that believing that they are accurate.

Its up to GGG to simply shed some light on the situation, since they are the only ones with the accurate information. And its due time, 2months in and we only have the 2weeks statistics? Dont you find their silence on the matter since then disturbing? Either they are hiding something or they dont give a fuck (and im to romantic to believe the latter)

The poll is "neutral" in topic title, but it isn't neutral and it isn't a representation of a larger player base. It at most, is a representation of the results of people that visited the poll, literally can't be anything more then that.

A more neutral position would be basically anywhere else aside from the feedback and suggestion forums, because these are where people go to complain, rarely praise. Look at the thread on these 2 pages, I doubt even 2-3 of the threads are "positive" feedback its mostly people complaining and wanting stuff changed because they are unhappy with this or that. So by posting a poll, even if its a more neutral title inside the feedback and forums thread you are going to ALWAYS get a more negative response then you would polling a larger, non negative leaning forum thread. Hell compared to reddit at least this place is just full of negativity and for the most part useless feedback, because as I've stated before the devs can't use "i dont like the lab", but they can use "i dont understand how to navigate the lab or how the different traps do damage"


I can agree there are people annoyed with the lab, there are people annoyed with many aspects of this game, like I'm annoyed the perandus was actually a league, because its going to be harder then ever before to try and pull back the reigns on the "free loot" shit.


The average joe would and is an idiot if they think you can multiply the % results from a bias poll and apply it to a larger group of people, as if those results are fact, the fact of the matter is that isn't how you get "good" un-biased polling results. He wants to try and say its justified because he modifies the results of the poll to make it "less bias" by just subtracting some shit, but then he wants to multiply it as a representation of the playerbase. Sorry doesn't work for me, doubt it works for anyone that wants ACTUAL tangible truthful results.


He keeps defending the ability to apply it to a larger scale, you simply can never do that when you start with a bias poll to begin with. As for the haters, I think your estimation might be correct, but don't you think thats relatively the same amount of people that disagree with most "major" changes and patches? I know ever since 2.0 the game just hasn't felt right to me, I found tempest fun and really enjoyed that league, but GGG has reverted back to the same old shit balancing mechanics that they've used since "forever" which is just nerf whatever is popular, without thinking of the ramifications.

For example they said melee was fixed in 2.0, I felt melee was in a better place, that is for sure, but it was still lacking something, even though cyclone was fun and fairly strong. What did they do, they nerfed cyclone, instead of trying to bring the rest of the melee abilities up to par. If they nerf EQ significantly or really at all I think, they will likely lose support from me going forward, because its just following the same shitty cycle they do with spells and ranged abilities, except when there is no good melee ability to play, they don't play another melee ability they just play a spell\ranged. If we continue to get "shitty leagues" because it has to cater itself to the softcore league more then the hardcore league, they also won't get anymore support from me.

Sorry for the rant, the relevancy is that a topic like this just has a lot of back and forth and feedback like mine doesn't really because its more of a statement, so while this whole lab thing looks like the biggest "issue" ever it really isn't, I've seen trading threads much larger and XP penalty threads larger as well, without the OP posting so much in it :P

I ultimately want the best game and the best version of PoE is one where people do the lab, IMO. I'm more then happy to answer questions in regards to mechanics, even though there are still some I dont know by GGG confirmation or if someone needs help understanding how to navigate or do the various things, but I can't support any action that removes AC points from the lab, because as we've listed before its the only thing you as a character must do inside the lab that can't be purchased. People "purchase" rushes or guides, but you still must overcome some of the challenges yourself, thats what makes it good game design IMO. As I've said before, even D3 has various ground effects and hammer things to avoid, GGG just took the lore they had and after the issues with constant desync were fixed they were able to make it into a well designed challenge, even ground effect style dangers aren't new to poe.


As for statistics anything after 1 month is basically irrelevant, the league always dies down after that and I'm not sure how it affects this particular discussion.

The people visiting the Feedback and Suggestions are a subset of the greater PoE player base. More than just people with something to complain about visit this forum. That is a simple fact and is proven by looking at the threads and seeing helpful suggestions or counter posts to people complaining about something.

What the poll proves and is corroborated by the posts we see here is that a significant percentage of people dislike the labyrinth. That is the only conclusion that I've said can be drawn from this straw poll. That is the sad truth whether we like it or not. You can dislike that fact until you turn blue in the face but it is still a fact. True that we can't know an exact percentage but we can get a good enough idea to know that it is significant.

I will estimate that this significant percentage can cautiously be placed somewhere in the range of 30% to 50% of the PoE players having a mild to very strong dislike of the Labyrinth.

I think the only real stats we have to go on are: http://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All Only GGG can know how many people are avoiding the Lab/trials and no one really knows how many people actually like the Lab. What we have on the forums is anecdotal, but still meaningful feedback that can be used conclude that the Ascendancy stuff is controversial.

The gameplay of the lab is inconsistent with the rest of POE and certainly will be incongruent for some players. Why this has been conflated with difficulty of the content, I don't know. If they make the next Star Wars sequel into a romantic comedy, fans will be upset, and not because they are too lazy to understand romantic comedies.

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Vortextreme wrote:

I think the only real stats we have to go on are: http://steamcharts.com/app/238960#All Only GGG can know how many people are avoiding the Lab/trials and no one really knows how many people actually like the Lab. What we have on the forums is anecdotal, but still meaningful feedback that can be used conclude that the Ascendancy stuff is controversial.

The gameplay of the lab is inconsistent with the rest of POE and certainly will be incongruent for some players. Why this has been conflated with difficulty of the content, I don't know. If they make the next Star Wars sequel into a romantic comedy, fans will be upset, and not because they are too lazy to understand romantic comedies.

I've already explained why the lab isn't really that far different then poe or even games in the same genre (like d3)

All the poll proves is some people dont like the lab, well no fucking shit otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made, but again you can't correlate the polling results to the playerbase as a whole.


If that is the only conclusion then why the fuck are you making up stupid fucking numbers trying to claim for the "whole playerbase" just stick to the facts if you want to use the poll, don't just speculate.


@Turtledove


I will estimate that you can't estimate shit based on a stupid fucking poll, if its your opinion, based on whatever the fuck you think, then thats fine, but you can't back it up with the poll because its not "correct"

Also worth noting you have 0 ascended characters, which indicates you don't even know shit about the lab and aren't qualified to give VALID FEEDBACK BECAUSE YOU HAVENT EVEN DONE IT YET!

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goetzjam wrote:

I've already explained why the lab isn't really that far different then poe or even games in the same genre (like d3)

All the poll proves is some people dont like the lab, well no fucking shit otherwise this thread wouldn't have been made, but again you can't correlate the polling results to the playerbase as a whole.


If that is the only conclusion then why the fuck are you making up stupid fucking numbers trying to claim for the "whole playerbase" just stick to the facts if you want to use the poll, don't just speculate.

I did not draw a conclusion about specific numbers from an informal poll and specifically stated that I wouldn't.

So, other ARPG games have used traps/puzzles as justification for POE to do it too. Is that really your reasoning for justifying changing the game-play of an established game?

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goetzjam wrote:

@Turtledove


I will estimate that you can't estimate shit based on a stupid fucking poll, if its your opinion, based on whatever the fuck you think, then thats fine, but you can't back it up with the poll because its not "correct"

Also worth noting you have 0 ascended characters, which indicates you don't even know shit about the lab and aren't qualified to give VALID FEEDBACK BECAUSE YOU HAVENT EVEN DONE IT YET!

You really are a rude and foul mouthed fellow. Also rather intellectually challenged since you can't understand that I can find the labyrinth boring tedious and not fun without completing the whole boring tedious and not fun thing.

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Turtledove wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

@Turtledove


I will estimate that you can't estimate shit based on a stupid fucking poll, if its your opinion, based on whatever the fuck you think, then thats fine, but you can't back it up with the poll because its not "correct"

Also worth noting you have 0 ascended characters, which indicates you don't even know shit about the lab and aren't qualified to give VALID FEEDBACK BECAUSE YOU HAVENT EVEN DONE IT YET!

You really are a rude and foul mouthed fellow. Also rather intellectually challenged since you can't understand that I can find the labyrinth boring tedious and not fun without completing the whole boring tedious and not fun thing.

I dont know how u find it boring ? I used to hate it a lots. But i love it now, after countless times i failed the lab, it is some thing new and tasty for arpg that GGG bring to this game. It even give me more action than uber or double core. Lab can be hard for the first time, but later when u find out tricks for it, it will be fun.
I used to throw my gameboy when i cant even win the first gym of Gold pokemon with Chikorita and decide to quit that stater. Years after it, when i learn how to play a game by enjoy it not for winning it, i completed the pokedex with chikorita as stater.
Later, if we can have a run match between friends in the same laby layout and map. The rewards is pronounced between friends or even guilds, it will be so much fun and competitive.

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T_Speed wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

@Turtledove


I will estimate that you can't estimate shit based on a stupid fucking poll, if its your opinion, based on whatever the fuck you think, then thats fine, but you can't back it up with the poll because its not "correct"

Also worth noting you have 0 ascended characters, which indicates you don't even know shit about the lab and aren't qualified to give VALID FEEDBACK BECAUSE YOU HAVENT EVEN DONE IT YET!

You really are a rude and foul mouthed fellow. Also rather intellectually challenged since you can't understand that I can find the labyrinth boring tedious and not fun without completing the whole boring tedious and not fun thing.

I dont know how u find it boring ? I used to hate it a lots. But i love it now, after countless times i failed the lab, it is some thing new and tasty for arpg that GGG bring to this game. It even give me more action than uber or double core. Lab can be hard for the first time, but later when u find out tricks for it, it will be fun.
I used to throw my gameboy when i cant even win the first gym of Gold pokemon with Chikorita and decide to quit that stater. Years after it, when i learn how to play a game by enjoy it not for winning it, i completed the pokedex with chikorita as stater.
Later, if we can have a run match between friends in the same laby layout and map. The rewards is pronounced between friends or even guilds, it will be so much fun and competitive.

I just completed the labyrinth so now (according to Goetzjam) my feedback is valid. My feedback is that labyrinth is boring tedious and not fun.