SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

There are examples on both sides of the fence regarding prestige classes or epic levels or <insert name here>. Sometimes devs adopt the "Ya Gotta Earn it" perspective, sometimes it's folded in with regular gameplay through a more seamless approach, with little to no added fuss.

For example, your first paragon point pops up almost before you blink in D3, after reaching level 70. And, the difference between 0 paragon points and as little as 1000 paragon points, for character power, is not minor matter. In Grim Dawn you get your second mastery as a matter of course at level 10, which offers a big spike in possibilities and, depending on the build, the power of your build. You're not even out of act 1 normal before this happens, in general.

Given GGG's need (and history of aiming) to pump up each new content release into something of galactic proportions, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they'd choose the most dramatic way of positioning their new content.

I don't see offering a large spike in power as inherently right or wrong, based on either just leveling up or based on somehow earning it. That's a trivial issue, in my view. What really matters is that content you need to do to progress in a game and to develop your character is actually fun.

Dressing up "Ya Gotta Earn it" with annoying and/or boring gameplay and then implying that's the only legitimate and appropriate way to get a power spike in a game is quite a novel point of view, if you look at the larger universe of games.

Regulator would likely say something like, "The automatic view of the White Knights is that the way that GGG did it is the right way. Anyone saying it could reasonably be done a different way is just plain wrong."

I agree with you, EnjoyTheJourney. Grim Dawn and D3 are both very good games. What is important to be a good game is the game must be fun and engaging. Challenging is of course usually good because it applies to the engaging part of the equation. However, when the content is not fun then it can be neither engaging nor fun and the challenging aspect would be irrelevant in that case. That is because it has to be fun first. If it's not fun then it won't be engaging. In that case the challenging aspect becomes more along the lines of forcing one's self to do an unpleasant task. Of course as has been pointed out many times, the traps in the labyrinth are not fun nor engaging nor even really challenging for many people. The challenging aspect of the labyrinth comes from Izaro not the traps.

Anyway, I wondered off on a tangent a bit. I thought that your post was right on though.

Which is why my NPC solution for "You gotta earn it" makes more sense. Right now you watch a PC do it rather quickly.
With my NPC solution it's the same effort for the player except it takes longer and you have to watch him sleep. It costs the same and takes longer.

My way is way more "you gotta earn it".
In fact my solution makes it "you gotta super duper earn it.".

It's like being told you can have a car with a better stereo but every morning you need to let a 13 year old kick you in the balls. I will take the worse stereo.

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The_Reporter wrote:

Labyrinth/Trials: Easily trivialized, poorly designed and realized, non-challenging, abhorrent garbage.

Essentially a waste of donation resources

Lets break this down.


easily trivialized, you mean if you plan around the specific challenge you can make it much easier, who would have thought.


Poorly designed, I don't see your game being as large and successful as poe, so perhaps this statement is more just a personal preference then some sort of fact.


Non challenging, yet people still complain about izaro being difficult, about dying to traps, hell a streamer died to traps not too long ago as an RF build!


You don't dictate where the resources get spent, you exchange your money for points\mtxs\real life merchandise. Furthermore, its again not a donation, you get something in exchange for your money, in addition its not tax deductible.

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Grim Dawn and D3 are both very good games.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Not only are you comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing games that aren't designed or intended to be anywhere near as challenging or complicated as poe.

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What is important to be a good game is the game must be fun and engaging.

This is true, sometimes certain things will cater more to others then yourself, you need to learn to accept that perhaps the content isn't your cup of tea, but others are doing content that isn't their cup of tea either.

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the traps in the labyrinth are not fun nor engaging nor even really challenging for many people. The challenging aspect of the labyrinth comes from Izaro not the traps.

They aren't going to be "fun" because you can die to them if you make a mistake or a series of mistakes. Most people aren't going to be fuck yeah I got over that set of traps, because they still have more to do in the lab, izaro phases, ect.

You yourself didn't even complete merc lab until I called you out on it. Who knows if you've even done uber lab at this point.

I would say a good portion of the challenge is izaro, but the risk of making mistakes thru traps is there as well.

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I thought that your post was right on though.

You think anyone that says anything negative about he lab is right.


I could say I think the lighting in the lab makes it feel like crap and you would likely praise me on that, its not a complicated achievement to get your approval.

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goetzjam wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Xavathos & raics,

Here's the crux of the issue. For over a year lab defenders have been crying foul over whatever seems like an effort to dilute the difficulty associated with earning POE's version of prestige classes.

The bigger issue of having a challenging game matters. And, I get that some believe standing up for keeping challenge in the game in this forum and/or on reddit makes a positive difference by counteracting a steady drumbeat of "nerf the difficulty!" from some players. But, the particular issue of whether prestige class skills are something given as a natural part of character progression or as something earned was never a key issue.

Is it that big of a deal to spend less then an hour per character (at least for subsequent characters) to unlock your classes potential? Even if you find the content less enjoyable its still effectively free power that given proper preparation can be pretty strait forward to get.


One of the real reasons why people dislike the lab is they know they can fuck up and die, unlike most cases in roll your face on keyboard and do shaped strands 1000 times.

For POE, my most enjoyable experiences were things like playing SSF hardcore in the invasion and beyond leagues, along with the multi-mod events (the "all league mods at once" time frame was particularly enjoyable, in one of the past multi-mod events). Playing SSF hardcore (unascended!) recently in the Mayhem event was also a blast, as another example.

My worst gaming experiences playing POE can be summed up in one word: Lab. My second worst gaming experiences have to do with reaching a point when mapping in which I needed to keep running lower level maps until they stopped being challenging, in an effort to build a better pool of higher tier maps that were challenging enough to be fun to play. I like choosing the difficulty at which I play a game, instead of having that dictated to me by RNG.

I'm far from alone in hating lab and wanting nothing whatsoever to do with it.

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Fruz wrote:

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Goetzjam wrote:

One of the real reasons why people dislike the lab is they know they can fuck up and die, unlike most cases in roll your face on keyboard and do shaped strands 1000 times.

That is definitely one of the biggest reasons, no doubt, the fact that it can't just be zerged is the big thing, and I hope that it's not going anywhere, which everything seems to indicate.

You fellows must keep going off on this because the traps are plainly too tough for you. What I suggest that you do is to diligently practice the traps until they aren't so frightening to you. They are really very easy to the point of being boring.

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Xavathos wrote:

Exactly. But a full priced released game is on a different level as a F2P aRPG.

The value proposition is pretty much universally set for a game at the price of 60 dollars. But where do you set this value in PoE? Some folks spend nothing and their value is through the roof. Others quickly spend (much) more than the average full priced 60 dollar game.

Is PoE that much bigger or better? Does it have that much better or more content? What is the value proposition of a game like this? It varies so much you can't really pin it to a standard.

And so in order to evaluate this content we must first set a standard, otherwise we end up with a full spectrum and no directions.

I don't think we can compare their value apples to apples, yeah, but I can see two different factors, initial impression and staying power.
A paid game needs to leave a strong initial impression to get good reviews as most of its revenue comes from selling the base game. It will use content stretching to avoid the 'barebones' tag, either saving development money that way or getting out of deadline constraints (as was the case with ME Andromeda, well, for that one it was likely both as the game was supposedly underfunded too).
A f2p game uses it primarily to boost staying power as purchases come after playing it for some time.

I suppose one thing is similar for both, you need to find the sweet spot where the bulk of the playerbase will spend more time than strictly needed on accomplishing game goals and still not get bored.

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Pyrokar wrote:

You mean like GGG does on each and every patch?

Yes and no, you just need to find which parts are a 'no' to see what's the difference between a mod and a content patch.

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Turtledove wrote:

You fellows must keep going off on this because the traps are plainly too tough for you. What I suggest that you do is to diligently practice the traps until they aren't so frightening to you. They are really very easy to the point of being boring.

Hahaha
The fact that you needed to react to this like that ( because you felt targeted by the previous statement, to point the obvious ) speaks volumes, by the way.


And well, you've proved too many times that you don't have a clue of what you are talking about too, so ...

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Spoiler

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goetzjam wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Xavathos & raics,

Here's the crux of the issue. For over a year lab defenders have been crying foul over whatever seems like an effort to dilute the difficulty associated with earning POE's version of prestige classes.

The bigger issue of having a challenging game matters. And, I get that some believe standing up for keeping challenge in the game in this forum and/or on reddit makes a positive difference by counteracting a steady drumbeat of "nerf the difficulty!" from some players. But, the particular issue of whether prestige class skills are something given as a natural part of character progression or as something earned was never a key issue.

Is it that big of a deal to spend less then an hour per character (at least for subsequent characters) to unlock your classes potential? Even if you find the content less enjoyable its still effectively free power that given proper preparation can be pretty strait forward to get.


One of the real reasons why people dislike the lab is they know they can fuck up and die, unlike most cases in roll your face on keyboard and do shaped strands 1000 times.

For POE, my most enjoyable experiences were things like playing SSF hardcore in the invasion and beyond leagues, along with the multi-mod events (the "all league mods at once" time frame was particularly enjoyable, in one of the past multi-mod events). Playing SSF hardcore (unascended!) recently in the Mayhem event was also a blast, as another example.

My worst gaming experiences playing POE can be summed up in one word: Lab. My second worst gaming experiences have to do with reaching a point when mapping in which I needed to keep running lower level maps until they stopped being challenging, in an effort to build a better pool of higher tier maps that were challenging enough to be fun to play. I like choosing the difficulty at which I play a game, instead of having that dictated to me by RNG.

I'm far from alone in hating lab and wanting nothing whatsoever to do with it.

So can you explain the issues you specifically you have with the lab or is it just too far gone that your only response is i dont want to do it? Because GGG doesnt seem to be willing to, at least at the current state to give those points anywhere else or remove mechanics from the lab.


In terms of maps, the way to bypass that is buying maps off zana for chance orbs, making sure you check after dailies and when she levels up. Depending on the time you run into this issue you could also buy maps off other players.

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And well, you've proved too many times that you don't have a clue of what you are talking about too, so ...

He proved that a long time ago by complaining about content he didnt even put forth the effort to actually complete once.


You know what you never see from anyone complaining about the lab. Videos of their "easy" runs, videos of how they cheese or whatever bull shit they come up with. Because quite frankly they are just repeating what some other person said, most likely way out of context.


For example if I said the lab was easy today, did you know I was referring to the normal lab, as in layout or as in mechanics to deal with for izaro. Do you know if I swapped a few pieces of gear out to plan for the challenge or if I just went in with what i was wearing. You have no clue, but you will repeat it if it even seems like it might help your point.