SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Pyrokar wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

Over there, no one is complaining that you get the uber skills for free or that there is boring mandatory content in the game, which makes me believe that their playerbase is actually somewhat intelligent and that the mod median xl is actually a better game than PoE.

I hope that's a joke, Median is a bloody mess, a fun mess up to a point but still a mess. Has anyone here played Median for years, the way we play PoE? Probably not, GGG has a goal to keep us invested for a long time, the longer we're here the more chance we'll buy something, when you're making a mod you aren't burdened by that.

Not sure what you are on about here. Median xl has had constant updates and probably for longer than PoE. Didn't do much research but i saw a runepage from 2013 with 300 runewords. Median xl gets donations like PoE does so there is incentive to update it regularly. Same as PoE.

Except they are totally different.

PoE doesn't accept donations, it sells virtual points used in purchasing microtransactions, sometimes in the form of a supporter packs, which holds extra goodies as thanks for your generous support.

The updates on a mod are driven by player interest, while for PoE it is a company, a team, a business. That goes paired with a lot more obligations than a mod. A mod could cease updates immediately and no one, not even the donators could do anything about it. With PoE that's not quite the case.

I could go into more detail, but like I said, apples and oranges.

There are examples on both sides of the fence regarding prestige classes or epic levels or <insert name here>. Sometimes devs adopt the "Ya Gotta Earn it" perspective, sometimes it's folded in with regular gameplay through a more seamless approach, with little to no added fuss.

For example, your first paragon point pops up almost before you blink in D3, after reaching level 70. And, the difference between 0 paragon points and as little as 1000 paragon points, for character power, is not minor matter. In Grim Dawn you get your second mastery as a matter of course at level 10, which offers a big spike in possibilities and, depending on the build, the power of your build. You're not even out of act 1 normal before this happens, in general.

Given GGG's need (and history of aiming) to pump up each new content release into something of galactic proportions, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they'd choose the most dramatic way of positioning their new content.

I don't see offering a large spike in power as inherently right or wrong, based on either just leveling up or based on somehow earning it. That's a trivial issue, in my view. What really matters is that content you need to do to progress in a game and to develop your character is actually fun.

Dressing up "Ya Gotta Earn it" with annoying and/or boring gameplay and then implying that's the only legitimate and appropriate way to get a power spike in a game is quite a novel point of view, if you look at the larger universe of games.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Dressing up "Ya Gotta Earn it" with annoying and/or boring gameplay and then implying that's the only legitimate and appropriate way to get a power spike in a game is quite a novel point of view, if you look at the larger universe of games.

Setting player psychology aside as we're hardly qualified to make a reliable statement on that, we can notice the most aggressive content stretching in games that sell any kind of ingame doodads, and doing that is hardly limited to f2p games these days.

Obviously enough, to sell more you want to keep people playing as long as possible and there's a limit to how much content you can squeeze into one game before the development process gets too expensive. Yup, it's cheaper to stretch out what you have, so we got grinding, pointless fetch quests, unnecessary backtracking, tacked on multiplayer and so on. Is it becoming a golden standard in the industry even if the game doesn't sell anything so it has no real need for it? Maybe, there's a minimum of content expected from a full priced title these days and cheating a bit to meet it is certainly tempting.

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raics wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

Not sure what you are on about here. Median xl has had constant updates and probably for longer than PoE. Didn't do much research but i saw a runepage from 2013 with 300 runewords. Median xl gets donations like PoE does so there is incentive to update it regularly. Same as PoE.

Ok, we'll switch over to blunt weaponry - I can't imagine myself playing MedianXL since 2012.

Making a mod follows a different approach in general than making a game, to get someone to switch over from vanilla game to a mod you need to turn up the dazzle, much features, many new content, streamline the annoyance to max. Longevity isn't an issue, you can afford to be generous.

You mean like GGG does on each and every patch?

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Dressing up "Ya Gotta Earn it" with annoying and/or boring gameplay and then implying that's the only legitimate and appropriate way to get a power spike in a game is quite a novel point of view, if you look at the larger universe of games.

Setting player psychology aside as we're hardly qualified to make a reliable statement on that, we can notice the most aggressive content stretching in games that sell any kind of ingame doodads, and doing that is hardly limited to f2p games these days.

Obviously enough, to sell more you want to keep people playing as long as possible and there's a limit to how much content you can squeeze into one game before the development process gets too expensive. Yup, it's cheaper to stretch out what you have, so we got grinding, pointless fetch quests, unnecessary backtracking, tacked on multiplayer and so on. Is it becoming a golden standard in the industry even if the game doesn't sell anything so it has no real need for it? Maybe, there's a minimum of content expected from a full priced title these days and cheating a bit to meet it is certainly tempting.

Exactly. But a full priced released game is on a different level as a F2P aRPG.

The value proposition is pretty much universally set for a game at the price of 60 dollars. But where do you set this value in PoE? Some folks spend nothing and their value is through the roof. Others quickly spend (much) more than the average full priced 60 dollar game.

Is PoE that much bigger or better? Does it have that much better or more content? What is the value proposition of a game like this? It varies so much you can't really pin it to a standard.

And so in order to evaluate this content we must first set a standard, otherwise we end up with a full spectrum and no directions.

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Pyrokar wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

Not sure what you are on about here. Median xl has had constant updates and probably for longer than PoE. Didn't do much research but i saw a runepage from 2013 with 300 runewords. Median xl gets donations like PoE does so there is incentive to update it regularly. Same as PoE.

Ok, we'll switch over to blunt weaponry - I can't imagine myself playing MedianXL since 2012.

Making a mod follows a different approach in general than making a game, to get someone to switch over from vanilla game to a mod you need to turn up the dazzle, much features, many new content, streamline the annoyance to max. Longevity isn't an issue, you can afford to be generous.

You mean like GGG does on each and every patch?

Just a small correction here Poe does not get donations.

Xavathos & raics,

Here's the crux of the issue. For over a year lab defenders have been crying foul over whatever seems like an effort to dilute the difficulty associated with earning POE's version of prestige classes.

The bigger issue of having a challenging game matters. And, I get that some believe standing up for keeping challenge in the game in this forum and/or on reddit makes a positive difference by counteracting a steady drumbeat of "nerf the difficulty!" from some players. But, the particular issue of whether prestige class skills are something given as a natural part of character progression or as something earned was never a key issue.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

Xavathos & raics,

Here's the crux of the issue. For over a year lab defenders have been crying foul over whatever seems like an effort to dilute the difficulty associated with earning POE's version of prestige classes.

The bigger issue of having a challenging game matters. And, I get that some believe standing up for keeping challenge in the game in this forum and/or on reddit makes a positive difference by counteracting a steady drumbeat of "nerf the difficulty!" from some players. But, the particular issue of whether prestige class skills are something given as a natural part of character progression or as something earned was never a key issue.

Is it that big of a deal to spend less then an hour per character (at least for subsequent characters) to unlock your classes potential? Even if you find the content less enjoyable its still effectively free power that given proper preparation can be pretty strait forward to get.


One of the real reasons why people dislike the lab is they know they can fuck up and die, unlike most cases in roll your face on keyboard and do shaped strands 1000 times.

People "crying" aren't the "lab defenders" here lol.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Over there, no one is complaining that you get the uber skills for free or that there is boring mandatory content in the game, which makes me believe that their playerbase is actually somewhat intelligent

Can't help being antagonizing / toxic I see, heh ?

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Goetzjam wrote:

One of the real reasons why people dislike the lab is they know they can fuck up and die, unlike most cases in roll your face on keyboard and do shaped strands 1000 times.

That is definitely one of the biggest reasons, no doubt, the fact that it can't just be zerged is the big thing, and I hope that it's not going anywhere, which everything seems to indicate.