SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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raics wrote:

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

But did you read what I wrote? Read it again.

I did, you can do merci lab with a 3,5-4k life evader and uber with ~5k, those are the minimum numbers your build should have at starting and higher mapping stages which are the points people will attempt the respective labs at. It's easier with builds that have good phys mitigation, sure, but it's still fine if you don't, I'm playing life eva quite a bit myself.

No you didn't read, or you quick read just the first line.
I said that is a problem on cruel where most characters don't have good gear yet except if you trade or have stashed which isn't very newbie friendly, you don't have almost any currency when you reach cruel lab. Merc lab is easier on this point because you alredy have some good gear and currency.
And 3.5 4k life is not enough, you will get one shoted by his ranged attack if you are not quick enough, lag etc. You can't say it's your fault for not being able to dodge every hit, that would be an endgame boss case like the shaper where the difficulty comes from there, dodging everything which is fine is the final boss. But the lab is not just a thing for endgame viable builds, it's supposed that every decent planned build should be able to do easily because it awards you your class specialty, the ascendancy which is a must if you want to avance in the game and finish merciless difficulty because the game assumes you already have it when you jump to the next difficulty.

I'm not saying they nerf boss dmg or life, maybe a bit on cruel and like someone said make not every damn thing on the lab be phys/regen viable so other builds can work around it.

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Phrazz wrote:

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

But did you read what I wrote? Read it again.

Haven't you been reading what they are saying? The lab is "fair". It doesn't discriminate. If you're not choosing the type on defenses that the lab is favoring, it's your builds fault. If you're not stacking reduced physical damage taken, health regen and endurance charges on your witch, shadow or ranger, it's not the labs fault, it's your build or you.

Idk, my HC raider has literally 0 armour, is not using coil, nor Taste of haste, arctic armour or endurance char.
And is uber ascended, solo.

Granted, it's a less tanky playstile, so it's a bit more risky.
But that applies to everything else in PoE, the whole content isn't friendly to somewhat squishy builds.

Traps really aren't the main problem in uber lab, imo, it's Izaro.


By the way, you forgot that energy shield recharge starting delay nodes are a great help for the lab, which are in the witch/shadow area.

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Phrazz wrote:

And the only argument you have against this, is; "you find it boring because you're bad at it", which couldn't be more wrong. It's almost like we're not allowed to find it boring.

You're totally allowed to think it's boring, but it just means that it isn't all on the content ( and that people pretending "Oh I'm super good at the lab, but it's sooo boring" are likely not being honest ).


It's like somebody keeping dying in the belly of the beast (random area taken, less environmentally friendly than many others) and taking 2 hours to do it, saying that it's sooo boring.
Would the content really be boring in this case ?

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raics wrote:

I do agree it isn't correct in that form. A connection between how much lab kicks your ass and how much enjoyment you're getting out of it is certainly there, it's just much more complicated than that.

We have somewhat of a similar reasoning here, differnt conclusion though.
Or maybe I just dare formulating it in a (probably too much) simplistic way.

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Phrazz wrote:

a "structure" designed to be frustrating in its self,

So freaking biased lol.

And no, it's not "so untipycal";

PS : you might not be as good in the lab as you think you are.
The only thing that '"forces" you to have a certain pool' in the lab is Izaro, not the traps.

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

I said that is a problem on cruel where most characters don't have good gear yet except if you trade or have stashed which isn't very newbie friendly,

Nonsense.
Good players beat the cruel lab SSF at the beginning of the leagues ( because that is way faster then).
If you have troubles gearing in cruel, there is likely something that you are doing wrong.
Either using the wrong orbs, or picking up the wrong items, or having wrong expectations and playing accordingly.

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

, it's supposed that every decent planned build should be able to do easily because it awards you your class specialty

No.
Hell no.
It gives up tremendous power, it should not be something you get "easily".
Your expectations are off, that is the problem.
So instead of enjoying a challenge, you prefer coming to the forums and complain ?
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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

No you didn't read, or you quick read just the first line.
I said that is a problem on cruel where most characters don't have good gear yet except if you trade or have stashed which isn't very newbie friendly, you don't have almost any currency when you reach cruel lab. Merc lab is easier on this point because you alredy have some good gear and currency.
And 3.5 4k life is not enough, you will get one shoted by his ranged attack if you are not quick enough, lag etc. You can't say it's your fault for not being able to dodge every hit, that would be an endgame boss case like the shaper where the difficulty comes from there, dodging everything which is fine is the final boss. But the lab is not just a thing for endgame viable builds, it's supposed that every decent planned build should be able to do easily because it awards you your class specialty, the ascendancy which is a must if you want to avance in the game and finish merciless difficulty because the game assumes you already have it when you jump to the next difficulty.

I'm not saying they nerf boss dmg or life, maybe a bit on cruel and like someone said make not every damn thing on the lab be phys/regen viable so other builds can work around it.

Yeah, I saw the current power level thing and ignored it because it's by nature perfectly irrelevant for sidequests, and lab is essentially a sidequest. An extremely tempting one but still technically optional, as in nobody's forcing you to do it right then and there. If you don't feel ready for the lab at whichever point in the game you can just put it off for later when you do.

The important thing is you can count on it, if you got an endgame viable build you will be able to fully ascend at some point, and if the build isn't endgame viable there's no point in fully ascending, you can't play content you'd need those last two points for anyway. We can probably take my last char as an example, it's an eva based coc essence drain assassin which is probably as bad as you imagine it is. It had under 4k life in merci lab, under 5k in uber, stinks royally for levelling and none of the labs were terribly hard with it.

Hell, first two labs can be done with a char that is barely functional and first two points are the most important ones because they complete your priority branch.

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Fruz wrote:

Traps really aren't the main problem in uber lab, imo, it's Izaro.


By the way, you forgot that energy shield recharge starting delay nodes are a great help for the lab, which are in the witch/shadow area.

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You're totally allowed to think it's boring, but it just means that it isn't all on the content ( and that people pretending "Oh I'm super good at the lab, but it's sooo boring" are likely not being honest ).


It's like somebody keeping dying in the belly of the beast (random area taken, less environmentally friendly than many others) and taking 2 hours to do it, saying that it's sooo boring.
Would the content really be boring in this case ?

I'm sorry, I'm going to ask as directly as I can (and to support; this is just a question): Are you just ignorant, or do you have reading comprehensions?

First of all: I don't find the lab "a problem" when i comes to difficulty. You keep ignoring that part, because it seem to be the ONLY argument you have. I'll say it again: I do not find the lab hard. I find it boring. There is no link between those two. Using your logic, you find every game in the world fun, as long as you're good at it. It's bullshit. And I think you know it. And even so, I SUCK big time at League of Legends - I still find it fun. Just to shit a little bit more on your so called "logic".

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Fruz wrote:

You're totally allowed to think it's boring, but it just means that...

No, that doesn't mean anything other than the fact that I find it boring.

And it's not like somebody that keeps dying in the Belly of The Beats over and over, because I don't keep dying over and over. And two hours? I've already told you that I can to the lab relatively fast. Your arguments are - once more - crap, and are results of either reading comprehension or ignorance.

Please, if you are to keep debating this, either stat reading or find other, better arguments.

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Fruz wrote:

Idk, my HC raider has literally 0 armour, is not using coil, nor Taste of haste, arctic armour or endurance char.
And is uber ascended, solo.

First of all, armor does not help against traps. Traps do not "hit" you, so armor (and sadly MoM) is useless, as far as I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I might be.

Secondly, I sort of understand your "master it=find it fun, struggle=find it boring" point of view, when you write that sentence. You actually view it as an achievement to ascend your character. You seem proud of it. It almost seem like YOU are the one struggling, and can't grasp the idea that someone doing it as well (or better than you) have critique against the lab, finding it boring.

"They are better than ME, they should be proud, do it for income and stop criticizing"...

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Phrazz wrote:

First of all, armor does not help against traps. Traps do not "hit" you, so armor (and sadly MoM) is useless, as far as I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I might be.

Spike traps and dart traps do hit, you will take less damage upfront so bleed or poison will be weaker too (though the latter is likely not true anymore in 3.0). You need to have a ton of armor for spike traps, though and darts do little damage so the overall benefit of armor in lab runs is suspect, endurance charges are where it's at.

I ran regen MoM as my first char this league and it was ok for lab, kicks in sometimes on traps, very useful in boss fights as they don't use DoT and doesn't bother you otherwise. Life VP and hybrid life/ES were probably the trickiest, I tested those two the league before last.

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Phrazz wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm going to ask as directly as I can (and to support; this is just a question): Are you just ignorant, or do you have reading comprehensions?

You apparently have writing problems however.
And apprently reading comprehension troubles also, since you take everything said as if it was personal (it usually indicates something though ...).
I never said that you had a "problem" with the lab, although you seem to want to bring that up.

Spending something that you supposedly take under 10 mins to do ( assuming that you are as good as you say you are - and per difficulty, obviously ), calling it "boring" .... I'm not buying it, or I would just call bad faith ( or just lying, many do that for the sake of trying to win an argument ).
Annoying, sure, but I don't care about that.

If you still don't understand the link' don't overdo it, don't go hurt yourself by trying to overthink it, might not be worth it.

Your comparison with league of legends shows that you really didn't understand any of it.
Or maybe did you do that association fallacy on purpose ?

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Phrazz wrote:

First of all, armor does not help against traps. Traps do not "hit" you, so armor (and sadly MoM) is useless, as far as I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I might be.

You are, spike traps hit.
Darts too, but can't tell if armour has an impact there tbh.

But as I said earlier : the problem is not the traps, at all.
It's Izaro.

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Fruz wrote:

I'm not buying it

When you choose not to believe based on what's good/bad for your own arguments, it becomes a total waste of time to debate with you.

It has nothing to do with my arguments there.
But keep believing that, I mean .... whatever.

And if you don't want to waste my time anymore, that's perfectly fine honestly.

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Fruz wrote:

It has nothing to do with my arguments there.
But keep believing that, I mean ....

You see? I can believe whatever I want too, like you.

But let's sum up this: The lab, its 14 trials and 4 labs, takes you what? 40 minutes in total? 30? And you are standing fast on your argument that it is impossible to find this content boring as long as you're good at it? Or as long as you don't struggle?

Or is it just me and the other people in this thread finding that content boring you refuse to believe?

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Fruz wrote:

But as I said earlier : the problem is not the traps, at all.
It's Izaro.

Izaro is not the problem of the lab. He's not hard at all, as fight is well designed with telegraphed attacks, and poses threat only to certain specific builds.
His "difficulty" can also be bypassed by over leveling him, so even these builds have their chances.
Uber Izaro is a different story, but this is a uber encounter which requires well built and geared character anyway. Though, he's not overtuned as well - becomes a nightmare only fully buffed (which is a player's decision).

And he's actually the only aspect of lab, somehow related to the aRPG genre - requires planning, gear, knowledge, and fighting skills.

I'm afraid you don't get anything.