SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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raics wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

I am pretty fun at perties, because I am hell of a magician, and as I'm a freakin' viking, I can drink most people under the table.

It's kinda funny, you know, there's a conspicuous shortage of 'viking mage' pics online, not even a decent shaman or seer to be found. I suggest changing your archetype.

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

Yes some builds, bow builds for example which don't have much tankiness and are evasion based find it hard on last fight where the arena is small full of traps on merc and you can get easily one shoted compared to the other boss fights and the gear you are getting on loot so far. Of course if you already have decent leveling gear stashed or trade for it its easy but I don't think it would be the case for new players or starting leagues. Cruel lab is significantly harder in comparison to what one should expect. Merc lab not so much because you should probably have some gear and currency already and except for the traps the run is not that hard, not a jump like in cruel. Uber lab is just merc lab with more stupid traps everywhere.

A decent bow build will aim for ~5k life at the bare minimum in endgame, you can't get oneshot even in uber lab with that if you don't mess up Izzy fights, and you can learn not to.

But did you read what I wrote? Read it again.

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

But did you read what I wrote? Read it again.

I did, you can do merci lab with a 3,5-4k life evader and uber with ~5k, those are the minimum numbers your build should have at starting and higher mapping stages which are the points people will attempt the respective labs at. It's easier with builds that have good phys mitigation, sure, but it's still fine if you don't, I'm playing life eva quite a bit myself.

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SingThisCorrosion wrote:

But did you read what I wrote? Read it again.

Haven't you been reading what they are saying? The lab is "fair". It doesn't discriminate. If you're not choosing the type on defenses that the lab is favoring, it's your builds fault. If you're not stacking reduced physical damage taken, health regen and endurance charges on your witch, shadow or ranger, it's not the labs fault, it's your build or you.

The lab favors physical mitigation, health regeneration and movement speed. If you're choosing some of the MAIN defenses of the game that the lab ignores (MoM, evasion, block, dodge), it's on YOU. Or your BUILD/class. Because the lab is FAIR.

/sarcasm

Even tho they know it's true, that the lab isn't fair against all the defenses the game offers, it's still a "git gud" issue. I can beat the lab with all classes pretty fast, and it IS totally doable, but it isn't fair. Far from. Make dodge, block, evasion, MoM have some sort of impact on traps? NO!!! Only health regen, movement speed and reduced physical damage taken, because that is "fair". All builds have an equal access to those defenses...?

No, the lab isn't fair, it will never be fair. But as long as it's doable for all classes, it doesn't have to be fair, so they can blame YOUR choice for going MoM (as an example).

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Phrazz wrote:

Even tho they know it's true, that the lab isn't fair against all the defenses the game offers, it's still a "git gud" issue. I can beat the lab with all classes pretty fast, and it IS totally doable, but it isn't fair. Far from. Make dodge, block, evasion, MoM have some sort of impact on traps? NO!!! Only health regen, movement speed and reduced physical damage taken, because that is "fair". All builds have an equal access to those defenses...?

Said it already, but I'd agree it's an issue if the lab takes the build with those defenses as a baseline. However, it doesn't, the baseline is a character that has the minimum amount of life/ES buffer and no secondary defenses, they made the lab doable for builds like that and everything else is just a bonus.

I suppose it would be more accurate to say it 'favors' some builds than 'discriminates' others, meaning that if you can't do it the fault is not on your build, it's on you.

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raics wrote:

I suppose it would be more accurate to say it 'favors' some builds than 'discriminates' others, meaning that if you can't do it the fault is not on your build, it's on you.

I somewhat agree with this. As a baseline; if you can't do the lab, it IS your fault. Either you can't avoid the traps, or your build is lacking. But that does not in any way make the lab "fair", as the difference between running it as a MoM witch is HUGE compared to running it as a ED/Health Regeneration Juggernaut.

The witch side of the tree is lacking access to ALL three elements making you "bypass" the labs challenges; Physical mitigation, movement speed and health regeneration. Especially if you're building life, which MoM is supposed to let you do. I don't think it would be so damn OP to not make MoM dependent on "hits", to be honest. But that's another discussion.

But anyhow, my main problem with the lab has nothing to do with the difficulty. It has more to do with the aspect of fun and the total design. I find "fun" to be very important in video games. I see it as the most important aspect of every game. And tho it is subjective as hell, I find the lab tremendously boring, to the point of me physically "tixing" by the thought of having to do it. And there's LOTS of us.

And the only argument you have against this, is; "you find it boring because you're bad at it", which couldn't be more wrong. It's almost like we're not allowed to find it boring.

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Phrazz wrote:

And the only argument you have against this, is; "you find it boring because you're bad at it", which couldn't be more wrong. It's almost like we're not allowed to find it boring.

Not mine and I agree it is wrong, my aforementioned stance on the issue is 'lab is boring because you made it boring', the most boring lab runs I had were with builds that were too overleveled or too well suited for it. Not expecting many would share that view but that's the way I see it.

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raics wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

And the only argument you have against this, is; "you find it boring because you're bad at it", which couldn't be more wrong. It's almost like we're not allowed to find it boring.

Not mine and I agree it is wrong, my aforementioned stance on the issue is 'lab is boring because you made it boring', the most boring lab runs I had were with builds that were too overleveled or too well suited for it. Not expecting many would share that view but that's the way I see it.

If you think carefully about what you just wrote, you'll probably realize that you're implying you know better than others why they feel they way they do.

Being overleveled offers one key benefit which is the ability to more quickly finish up in lab and move on to things that are actually enjoyable. If you dislike or hate lab, then over-leveling makes good sense as a kind of "pain reduction" strategy.

Yep lab is pretty fair. If you call everyone getting damaged at a different value between similar primary defence builds and at a different ratio for different primary defence builds fair. An exile deals a certain amount of damage to everyone before any mitigation. Traps deal different amounts depending on if you are life, es or hybrid with different values at different life and es ratios. And remember, if you wear a kaom's or belly to take it off when traversing traps, because you just make it harder for yourself as you heal a lower percentage of your hp pool if you wear them, but do not take your armor off if you wear a shavronnes because that is fair.

Like my vomit when i fully ascend all my characters in hardcore, who to this day never died in a lab as i am a ProMarioPlayer. That one's color is pretty fair too.