SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Backtrack, re-find gold door.

Why do you need to "re-find" it you just move back to it. Not to mention that except for the outside areas the gold door and the key area are right next to each other.

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Give the ascendancy points as a reward for something already in the game. For example, give the Uber points for killing the Shaper. It would require minimal effort by GGG and frankly would be better than creating something new just for that (based on how "great" the labyrinth is).

That is a cool idea. How about putting the first 2 points behind Atziri, the next 2 behind Uber Atziri, the next 2 behind Vaal Temple map and the last 2 behind shaper, I guess that would work well.

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* Traps ignoring character choices. Traps being the focus of gameplay, rather than killing monsters. Essentially, making trap gameplay different than the rest of the game.

I kinda want to see your definition of "focus". The Lab is just a normal area with a few traps added. Trials have a focus on traps, and I wouldn't mind the removal of at least the non-uber ones, because they are completly worthless and mostly a waste of time because they don't reward you with anything.

And those traps ignore as many choices as certain damage types do. Of you got armor... sadly all elemental damage ignores it. The best defense everywhere in the game is movement and it works just as well in the lab. And like for most other things in the game there is also defenses for the traps, you just need to get those and if you don't that is a choice. Of course it is a novelty that Life and ES do not matter, but again why should those stats be treated any different than armor or evasion.

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* Disconnects causing start-over. (and massive wastes of time)
1 solution: a labyrinth alternative doesn't require zone changes, or allows multiple attempts/portals. This is the problem I encountered. This would make it more tolerable.

Something people need to differ here is a client crash and when the instance crashes. You notice the difference in groups often and that instances are instantly close (or sometimes just crash over and over, but normally they close if that happens). If the instance crashes your lab progress is lost regardless of any changes you could make to the game. Even if you could enter the labyrinth and leave it whenever you want if the instances crashes it is gone. If they would be able to detect crashing instances they could maybe help with that, but multiple portals wouldn't help if it crashes the instance.

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Right, none, there's no single or multistage encounter I can think of that would be equivalent to trials + traps + triple linked boss fight. They could allow themselves to have a less challenging boss fight that any decent build can do because other parts of the package make up for it.

Right now you could link points to some hard content, like Uber Atziri or Shaper, which would take less time, but are a lot harder content and less accessible as well. However I doubt that this is a good solution because almost everybody would get their points from uber lab, because they might not even be able to defeat those two bosses.

However their are easy addition. Like a suggested before the easiest way for an alternative would be an arena gauntlet that just swarms you with enemies. It should be a bit harder than Izaro on the fighting part, but would be only fighting. And if you survive you get your points. Of you couldn't ascend early with that, because it is only fighting it would be odd if you can just overlevel it, but it could be another endgame part, with one arena in merc where you can fight in, and if you offer white/yellow/red maps you get access to harder difficulties (and the map you offer would decide which enemies you fight) and the other points.

And of course their are options that are harder to implement, like Rhoa racing :P

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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The_Reporter wrote:

This thread isn't for you. It's for GGG.

Scram, trollish one.

And just who do you think you are telling me what to do? I'll do what I like. I'm not breaking any rules. I'm not leaving until you do. Deal with it, dear fellow.

Funny. In a sense, I AM the Lab. ;)

I'm not a fan of appeals to authority, but you chose to bring it up, so:

Deliberately derailing a thread and trolling in a thread are both absolutely against "the rules."

And you've done both, multiple times, by any reasonable standard. I don't know if that was your goal or not, but quite frankly that is irrelevant.

I haven't reported you, because that's not my style (I prefer to call people out on their bullshit and let them dig their own grave--as you are doing), but do not for a minute think you can hide behind GGG to justify your poor behavior and manners, Xavathos.

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Xavathos wrote:

I will keep responding because you will not stop making me look like crap each post you decide to write...

You do not need me for that. I think you are doing a fine job all by yourself. Please stop.

Not your style, right. You know that I'm not doing anything wrong disagreeing with you, so if you did report me, you'd do yourself more harm than me.

Come on man, at least be man enough to let it go if you can't admit that you're wrong.

Manners have nothing to do with this. I am not putting up an attitude, I am actively disagreeing with you. Just like you are actively trying to ruin this part of the game for me. I won't stand for it.

Once again, hopefully for the last time, deal with it.

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Xavathos wrote:

Once again, hopefully for the last time, deal with it.

He is, all of them are, this thread is their way of dealing with the existence of labyrinth. Gotta say I even admire it a bit, these threads are an epitome of faith and persistence.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Well, precise equivalence is not a realistic goal. But the most approximately equivalent encounter is Malachai, since it requires the killing of three mini-bosses before you can even get to him. Some of those mini-bosses in Merciless can be challenging, too, if you have a poorly made and/or equipped character.

Yeah, you know, if we offhandedly put it all into numbers, there's what, 10 points for uber trial RNG, 40 points for the annoyance of traps, trials and having to do it all in one go, 30 points for the boss encounter and we get 80 effort points. As a point of comparison, we could give elemental Breachlord domains some 60 effort points for the shard collecting + monster gauntlet + boss encounter, but the snag is they force you into a specific playstyle and some builds are very poorly suited for it. There's more than one way to deal with traps and Izaro, you can go fast but you can also do it really slow and careful, even with naturally sluggish chars with no movement skills or low dps chars that take ages to kill Izzy.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zaludoz wrote:

Alternative solution in the current labyrinth: If there could be waypoints AFTER each Izaro battle, that saved his end-of-battle state until your next battle with him, disconnects would always bring you back to a point before the battle began, thus even if your flasks are re-filled (and if this is just an adjustment to the current Labyrinth with the current zone-changing series of maps), you still have to navigate from the waypoint, through the labyrinth, back to the boss each time you fight him (and his HP/etc would all be saved from the last time you entered that battle, not when you left it, until that stage has been defeated), so you can't just chip away at the boss by death-zerging.

You can, especially if his HP would be saved, you can chicken out and rush through 2 or 3 areas to keep the zerging, which is exactly why there is no waypoint in there.
Simulate the disconnection, and then zerg it like the rest of the game = not happening.

My solution was specifically countering this phenomenon. The battle would ALWAYS be reset every time you entered that combat room, to the condition Izaro was in at the END of the previous encounter, not his "current battle HP". This would be a change to how the Labyrinth works. I'd even say these are a new type of waypoint that are part of the Izaro encounter, and saved to your character differently than a normal waypoint in the game that only keeps track of a location. So, even despite actual server instance crashes, you could potentially continue, using this waypoint system.

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Emphasy wrote:

I kinda want to see your definition of "focus".

These are my previous posts in this thread that go into the trap focus and how it's different gameplay than the rest of the game.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216/page/332#p13870139
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216/page/334#p13872262
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216/page/340#p13880215

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Zaludoz wrote:

These are my previous posts in this thread that go into the trap focus and how it's different gameplay than the rest of the game.

It is, I suppose it was apparent as a potential pitfall point #1 as soon as we saw the video reveal. You play PoE because it offers a type of gameplay you like and the kind you expect from a good online ARPG. Traps are a significantly different concept from the rest of the game, many similar titles have traps of sorts but trap gauntlets do not play a prominent role unless it's an adventure style game like Nox.

So, the main problem is this - you drew a crowd that likes the classic online ARPG content, if you introduce trap gauntlets you're left with a portion of the original playerbase that likes the concept of traps or is at least indifferent to them. If we assume you need to like at least half of the game to play it and PoE is 'monster bashing + theorycrafting + trading' traps might push you below 50%.

If I take myself as an example this is how the grading system works if we use 1-5 as hate - like scale.
monster bashing - 3 (neutral)
theorycrafting - 5 (like)
trading - 2 (somewhat dislike)
traps - 3 (neutral)

So, the sum is 13, which is still above the midpoint of 12, if I hated traps it would drop the score to 11 and I would leave the game. True, it's a simplified way to look at things but it does illustrate a point.

What's your score? :)

monster bashing - 5 (like)
theorycrafting - 5 (like a lot if I could go higher than 5)
trading - 1 (dislike) (with minor adjustments this could be a 3)
traps - 1 (dislike) (with changes from my most recent suggestion, could be a 4)

Puts me at 12 (with a potential 17)

So today's announcement was pretty interesting. Dan and Josiah's take on labyrinth and what worked/didnt while they were making it.

The presentation amongst other things mentions :

- The Prison had some of the earliest gauntlets we designed. This one is affectionately nicknamed the "Frogger" gauntlet. (deleted shortly after)
- Very Different from our usual content
- Traps deal percentage damage so that is equal for ALL
- We expect movement skill but can not require players to use them
- Normal PoE combat only sometimes plays well with traps, we insulate monsters a bit from trap zones

And as some kind of conclusion

-Know the limitations of your game : Our constraints aren't the same as your constraints
-Know your players' capabilities and playstyles : How does the weakest player fare? How does the strongest?
-Watch how people play and listen to their Feedback : Target any added difficulty at the most
powerful playstyles

Amongst those points they also decided to put some pictures in it, one of their choices was Prince of Persia (yes the original game i also mention in the opening post in one of the spoilers) plus from the Super Metroid another (absolutely amazing) arcade 90's game.

So first things first, now the rest of you lot (yes you) can understand what we mean by DIFFERENT gameplay inspired and in some cases copy pasted from ARCADE games with run&jump mechanics only. They literally are paying tribute to 80 and 90 arcade games.

The idea of everyone is the same regarding the damage that takes from traps is arcade in nature too. Your choices in defences DONT MATTER in an ARPG? Since when? Thats ok though since the lab isnt an ARPG is it? Its a game inside another game.

Without movement skills some gauntles are literally IMPOSSIBLE to pass without getting hit. Not very bright design.

And since lab has nothing to do with normal poe combat lets put monsters after a gauntlet for fask refil.

And then comes the conclusion, the only on that matters from the three, the first one, since both the 2nd and the 3rd are the company's approach to the game balancing and reworking.

Know the limitations of your game : Our constraints aren't the same as your constraints

Dear GGG, fortunately we know our limitations, and lab aint even close to what we consider barely possible. It is not even a part of the game we want to see removed, we are happy you choose to go in different ways and copied pasted 80's games, we grew up with those games. We are happy some of your players have the chance to have a taste of frogger and contra and prince of persia. You speak of limitations and constraints but you put those in your game for literally no apparent reason, why force players to experience a totally different kind of game just to optimize their character? What would be SO gamebreaking if there were other options to gain those points and lab was just another optional content, which by the way is the most rewarding in the game as well and people still dont do it in the levels/quantity you though so. You put an arcade gate to an arpg core characteristic, and a boring and allienating gate as well, that takes some commitment.

Maybe - since SSF will be a thing after 3-4 years of forum spamming - we can also hope in 2020 that there will be some consideration to the things mentioned in the OP or even straight up put some of those suggestions in the game. There is nothing wrong with more options, is there?

Anyway glad to see at least something regarding the labyrinth even at that minimum scale, which by the way totally confirms paragraphs II, III and IV in the OP making them completely solid/legit for the people around here who like to bash and crap all over the legitimacy of our complaints.

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Regulator wrote:

You put an arcade gate to an arpg core characteristic, and a boring and allienating gate as well, that takes some commitment.

Maybe - since SSF will be a thing after 3-4 years of forum spamming - we can also hope in 2020 that there will be some consideration to the things mentioned in the OP or even straight up put some of those suggestions in the game. There is nothing wrong with more options, is there?

Anyway glad to see at least something regarding the labyrinth even at that minimum scale, which by the way totally confirms paragraphs II, III and IV in the OP making them completely solid/legit for the people around here who like to bash and crap all over the legitimacy of our complaints.

They put an insane amount of power around something that requires you to leave a bit of your comfort zone in order to gain that insane amount of power. They put it behind something that isn't as simply as just getting TP in at the end and getting carried. Yes, someone can do the boss encounter for you, but that is the same for the rest of the game as well, they took important aspects of the "regular gameplay" and ensured it was still semi possible inside the lab.

You call it boring all you want, that isn't a legitimate reason to change how you obtain the most powerful character bonus you can get for your character, perhaps outside of gear. You keep asking the question of "what does it hurt to just make them available in another way", if GGG did this for all content in the game then we would never get a new piece of content again or if we did it would take designing multiple fronts and severely slowdown the amount of content we get.

Your #1 crusader started to complain about the lab and go all gun hoe before he even completed merciless lab. I'm absolutely baffled on how you think its ok to have people that just approach anything "different" with such an attitude.


As said for the 100th time traps are not new to ARPG games. The traps as people like to say are actually usually the easier parts of lab, the hardest parts would be knowledge of how to progress in the right direction and ensuring the boss does not get overbuffed for build you are doing.



I'm somewhat surprised that GGG added the SSF thing, considering it was gaining popularity not only because of streamers but because the game's droprates and power accessibility is too high for the game to be the proper hardcore ARPG game that it once was. The support, I hope, is not something that GGG spent too much time on considering the community was already tracking the ladder of SSF characters, it just followed the honor system, which in a SSF type of situation doesn't "really" matter because cheating to get a competitive advantage is just cheating yourself, there are no prizes for SSF.

However, it does seem interesting because a similar amount of effort could have been placed on custom leagues instead, which not only would allow the SSF type of thing, but also allow for a more hardcore style league to be designed.

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There is nothing wrong with more options, is there?

More options takes more dev time, both from a balance standpoint and a time standpoint, furthermore the perception of which is better will create the same sort of divisiveness we see today. If the alternative to AC points is not easier, given freely or whatever your personal view of how they should be rewarded, then you still get complaints, while compromising game design in the process.

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raics wrote:

If I take myself as an example this is how the grading system works if we use 1-5 as hate - like scale.
monster bashing - 3 (neutral)
theorycrafting - 5 (like)
trading - 2 (somewhat dislike)
traps - 3 (neutral)

So, the sum is 13, which is still above the midpoint of 12, if I hated traps it would drop the score to 11 and I would leave the game. True, it's a simplified way to look at things but it does illustrate a point.

What's your score? :)

monster bashing - 5 (like)
theorycrafting - 4 (somewhat like)
trading - 3 (neutral)
traps - -1 (boring, tedious and irritating)

So, the sum is 11 and I don't play anymore. Hey it worked!

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Turtledove wrote:

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raics wrote:

If I take myself as an example this is how the grading system works if we use 1-5 as hate - like scale.
monster bashing - 3 (neutral)
theorycrafting - 5 (like)
trading - 2 (somewhat dislike)
traps - 3 (neutral)

So, the sum is 13, which is still above the midpoint of 12, if I hated traps it would drop the score to 11 and I would leave the game. True, it's a simplified way to look at things but it does illustrate a point.

What's your score? :)

monster bashing - 5 (like)
theorycrafting - 4 (somewhat like)
trading - 3 (neutral)
traps - -1 (boring, tedious and irritating)

So, the sum is 11 and I don't play anymore. Hey it worked!

Well you can't possibly play anymore because you spend all of your time shitposting on the forums about how much you think the lab is boring. Lets not forget maintaining your "massive" list takes a significant amount of time and effort as well.