SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

You don't fix an un-fun time sink by making it less of a time sink. You fix the fact that it isn't fun.

It is possible to make something more fun by making it shorter, and I really believe that principle applies here.

It really doesnt, because you can not make something more fun that is, at its core, not fun in the first place. Because the core problem of labyrinth are the traps and gameplay around them that are simply not fun for a lot of people that play this type of games. And no matter how short you make them they will still be unfun and boring.

The only way to fix the labyrinth is to remove the traps from it, or remove AC/make it tradable currency, so people that dont like this type of play style are not forced in doing it to get the new subclasses.

So the best solution is to make AC a tradable currency, or put it behind something else as reward (that is part of normal arpg/PoE gameplay).

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Ragnar119 wrote:

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

You don't fix an un-fun time sink by making it less of a time sink. You fix the fact that it isn't fun.

It is possible to make something more fun by making it shorter, and I really believe that principle applies here.

It really doesnt, because you can not make something more fun that is, at its core, not fun in the first place. Because the core problem of labyrinth are the traps and gameplay around them that are simply not fun for a lot of people that play this type of games. And no matter how short you make them they will still be unfun and boring.

The only way to fix the labyrinth is to remove the traps from it, or remove AC/make it tradable currency, so people that dont like this type of play style are not forced in doing it to get the new subclasses.

No, that's just the BS you want to tell yourself so people do things your way.

You don't need Ascendancy points, they're optional. No one needs Ascendancy points, they could be removed for everyone. Ascendancy Points could be rewarded literally anywhere other than the Labyrinth, as you desire. The Labyrinth could cease to exist, or its traps could be incorporated into the core game. Or both.

Or a million other ideas far more original than those.

So cut it out with the false dichotomy crap.

As far as I'm concerned, the OP suggestion is as silly as removing the passive point reward from Dweller of the Deep. Even if that quest had enough issues to cause a lot of forum complaints, that should mean improving the quest itself, not putting the reward somewhere else.

Of course, this didn't mean GGG couldn't move that passive point reward. They could. I just think that'd be shitty.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

No, that's just the BS you want to tell yourself so people do things your way.

You don't need Ascendancy points, they're optional. No one needs Ascendancy points, they could be removed for everyone. Ascendancy Points could be rewarded literally anywhere. The Labyrinth could cease to exist, or its traps could be incorporated into the core game.

Or a million other ideas far more original than those.

So cut it out with the false dichotomy crap.

As far as I'm concerned, the OP suggestion is as silly as removing the passive point reward from Dweller of the Deep. Even if that quest had enough issues to cause a lot of forum complaints, that should mean improving the quest itself, not putting the reward somewhere else.

Of course, this didn't mean GGG couldn't move that passive point reward. They could. I just think that'd be shitty.

The only BS is implementing platform like gameplay and putting a important new customization mechanic for you character behind it.

Everyone needs AC from the moment they implemented it in the game, and it will become even more important when GGG ups the difficulty to balance the game more. This is not some new item, this is a very important customization mechanic that is from now on a core part of PoE.

Removing passive point reword is not the same thing, as passive point is a quest reword behind a normal gameplay of PoE and arpg games, a thing that you will always do in PoE. Its not behind new type of gameplay. That is the core problem. So your comparison is simply not correct.

AC reword just needs to go, and nothing else can fix this problem, as there is nothing that will make people that dont like trap gameplay like it. That is a fact. So less posting bullshit, and look at thing how they are. GGG should make this content fully optional for enchantments and similar thing that can be traded. AC should never be put behind this crap.

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Regulator wrote:

I couldnt find more info on the matter (since you know GGG likes to keep things hidden) but those two quotes from the master Vipermagi are more than enough. Basically since most traps deal percentage damage over time, every skill point on the tree that is spend on armour,evasion,dodge,block, HP, ES, endurance charges is rendered COMPLETELY USELESS. In contrary every movement speed node, damage node, HP regeneration node are not in any way affected.

Again, not a bad thing, as unwavering stance, resolute technique, resistance penetration or curse immunity is not a bad thing in monsters, or map mods like no regen or blood magic. As a RPG, some things works against traps and some are useless, you have many ways to counterplay it (even if it's bullshit for some builds, but that's another subject). Even if there wasn't counterplay except for movement, it wouldn't necessarily mean a bad thing, not even if you say so. It's an ARPG, not Dungeon and Dragons. Stop passing opinions for fact, and stick to the only truth: you dislike the whole thing, and many people do too.

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Pyrokar wrote:

Not all hardcore gamers have the same degree of tolerance. That should answer your question as to why people can't wait for two seconds (nice exaggeration btw) to do the lab or pass the trials or whatever. How many bullshit deaths do you think the majority of the hardcore base is going to tolerate? Do you think a hardcore player would rather die from a trap or fighting a boss? I think the fighting a boss answer seems more logical. Some things for you to think about.

Yeah, no, unless you have performance issues or play a build like CI, traps are not going to be bullshit deaths (and then some people swear the labyrinth is easy). If you are in one of those groups, it's a better argument for a fix rather than a bypass.

Also, boss shouldn't be the only thing that can kill you in the game. That's part of the reason it can become dull the game. You seem to not want to feel at risk except at some parts of the game. Not really hardcore.

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mynameisonlyforthegods wrote:

Labyrinth is just comparable to if traps and doors locked behind switches were added to Sceptre of God. It'd be nothing but an annoyance with no other reason than to be annoying.

Why do I hate the lab? Oh, let's see...

1. It encourages a playstyle that is completely foreign and unfitting for PoE. It breaks the flow of the game completely.
2. Stability.
3. "Oh I just ran through all these traps on my screen and took no damage. Weird huh."
4. "Oh I just died to traps that aren't even close to hitting me on my screen. Weird huh."
5. Ridiculous boss spike damage. Taking ~6k spikes with full end charges and blablabla up is just traditional PoE. Fucking ridiculous for a place that takes 20+ mins to clear in the first place.

1.A lot of classic games like Final Fantasy (or more recently Undertale) mix a lot of genres. No one should care about the purity argument, but rather about implementations. If developers followed that train of thought, a lot of interesting games wouldn't have been done. Also, it's not the first ARPG that does this.
2.Fixable. Not the first time it happens.
3.Fixable.
4.Fixable.
5.It's traditional PoE. There is always something overtuned that kills you. Fixable too.

It just makes more of a point for reform than anything. People have described as annoyances that exist to be annoying a lot of stuff in the game, I mean, A LOT of stuff (Act 3X and 4 monsters and bosses, non linear layouts, long levels, corrupting blood, reflect, invulnerability aura, death penalty etc.). See this thread for some whinning about annoying stuff that should be ignored.

I didn't ask for the removal of Dominus when the performance problems ruined my playthrough the first time, nor the many times he killed me until I learned the fight. And many have described that type of bosses as bullet hell-like, and unfitting for the game, the same for Malachai or Piety the abomination.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

SET FREE PASSIVE POINT FROM DWELLER OF THE DEEP

* watery cave tileset is horrible, easy to get lost
* completing quest is tedious
* crab battle isn't fun and the mechanics are obnoxious (seriously who wants to be slowed?)

+1, spot on.

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Turtledove wrote:

My opinion is that you are wrong on almost all counts. Probably the one point that is most incorrect, Ascendancy points are NOT as optional as Atziri! That position is completely ridiculous, in my opinion.

You can beat the whole game without them so how are they not optional? In fact you could beat the whole game in each difficulty and clear a map of every tier without ever getting a single Ascendancy skill point; you could even go kill Atziri and clear some extra non-core content without the points. If that isn't optional nothing is.

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Turtledove wrote:

You are once again harping on difficulty instead of the real problem which is boring tedious and not fun content.

This is your opinion of the content. I was not aware that the game was produced for your sole and singular benefit, how unwise of GGG to not check with you before releasing this content. In a similar vein of whiny complaints, people frequently piss and moan about maps: should maps be removed because they are not universally loved? Unfortunately for you, as this is your opinion only it is not supported by facts and is not a benchmark for what should and should not exist in the game.

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Regulator wrote:

2. Though my suggestion regarding this is not in the OP, if you had read better you would understand that this is only for a better experience overall, since when you relog you are still in the last izaro fight room, no cheesy way out of it, you still have to do the whole level.

Your response to mine included this as a suggestion, I am well aware of the fact that it is not in your OP. No it will not provide a better experience, it will provide an easier experience which is exactly what you are looking for regardless of your attempt to disguise your suggestions as QoL improvements.

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Regulator wrote:

Still refusing to adress the issue presented here, similar to neglecting FACTS.

If my arguments were not based on truth i wouldnt even take the time to make the OP. If my argments werent based on truth nobody would support this. If my arguments werent based on truth people would have rebutalled them long time ago. Still no valid answer to those, cause its simple YOU CANT DISMISS THE TRUTH.

This is all false. People support lies everyday; support for a statement neither validates the statement nor provides it with tangible evidence. Your whole thread is an opinion. There is no basis in "fact" or "truth" when discussing an opinion. Simply put: An opinion is never wrong, but it is also never "right" per say. I have seen multiple rebuttals in this thread regarding your so-called truths and they coincide with my own opinion. The only truth to take away from this is that GGG also appears to be in agreement with us currently.

Again, have some gratitude for the work that GGG put into the new content and realize that while their vision might not coincide with yours (or mine) it is their game you are playing. The AC points are optional (100% factually optional as you do not need to clear the lab or unlock these points to play the game AT ALL) and they were added with an optional side area that took months to develop as well as a substantial financial investment. Rather than complain about not liking part of the content you should try to focus on what you do like. I like the AC points; I hate the lab. Instead of whining, I run the lab as little as possible and glory in the wonderful sensation of currently over powered AC classes.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

Not all hardcore gamers have the same degree of tolerance. That should answer your question as to why people can't wait for two seconds (nice exaggeration btw) to do the lab or pass the trials or whatever. How many bullshit deaths do you think the majority of the hardcore base is going to tolerate? Do you think a hardcore player would rather die from a trap or fighting a boss? I think the fighting a boss answer seems more logical. Some things for you to think about.

Yeah, no, unless you have performance issues or play a build like CI, traps are not going to be bullshit deaths (and then some people swear the labyrinth is easy). If you are in one of those groups, it's a better argument for a fix rather than a bypass.

Also, boss shouldn't be the only thing that can kill you in the game. That's part of the reason it can become dull the game. You seem to not want to feel at risk except at some parts of the game. Not really hardcore.

You forgot server issues. Adding traps just adds one more way to have a bullshit death in the game. So, not only is it unfun, frustrating whatever, it even adds one more way to have a bullshit death that you can't build around. Your 10% life/sec, if you run that one specific build, isn't gonna help you when you have that lagspike on a trap. I know because i had one, no way to counteract that so yea there are a lot of bullshit deaths sponsored by traps.

I never said that it should be the only thing that can kill you brah. Where did you read that? I just said i think people would rather die fighting a boss rather than an inanimate object. Well done twisting words.

Here is a bullshit trap death.

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Pyrokar wrote:

You forgot server issues. So yea dying to traps just adds one more way to have a bullshit death in the game. So, not only is it unfun, frustrating whatever, it even adds one more way to have a bullshit death that you can't build around. Your 10% life/sec, if you run that one specific build, isn't gonna help you when you have that lagspike on a trap. I know because i had one, no way to counteract that so yea there are a lot of bullshit deaths sponsored by traps.

In a game that has tons of bullshit ways to die. It's the same argument people used against Dominus in the past (that lag spikes would get you killed). Also, I'd argue against the bullshit part. It's the desync problem all again.

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Pyrokar wrote:

I never said that it should be the only thing that can kill you brah. Where did you read that? I just said i think people would rather die fighting a boss rather than an inanimate object. Well done twisting words.

Inanimate objects shouldn't kill me because I say so, that's what I read. It's not really a good reason. Some people even say they shouldn't be dying against most monsters (ARPGs are about overpowering the content and feeling godly).

You can build around dominus. You can't build around traps.

It's obvious you read what you like rather than what's being said. Thanks for admitting it yourself. Also very cute of you thinking that people care what you think is a good reason against the lab or not. You are nobody. It's GGG's opinion that matters. No reason to talk with you ever again i guess. Have fun reading what you want.

#freeascendancypoints

#nofunallowed

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Pyrokar wrote:

You can build around dominus. You can't build around traps.

That's not true at all, you can build chars very weak to traps (CI with slow regen), and chars very strong against traps (pure life with high regen). For pure life, I'd say that all you need is some good rolled flasks and traps are just a non issue, you can literally run through them.
Obviously if you have a 10 sec lag on a trap, you're dead either way. But with a 10 sec lag, you're dead in like 90% of the game if you're not in town/hideout so what's the point of this argument ? And if you have regular 10 sec lag in the game, I'd suggest you to check with your ISP. Game has issues, sure, but not regular huge lags.