SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Fruz wrote:

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

[...]

I'm not sure if you actually know what you are talking about, since the game is being balanced around having ascendancy points, and that power level during leveling basically does not matter since it got so easy now.
During leveling, asc points are either QoL, or build defining.

To ramp up the difficulty and have actually nice content only, GGG need to remove the ways to cheese it : instantly killing bosses before mechanics come into play, and for the lab make some traps nerf regeneration, stuff like this, imho.

Says what changes?

Please by all means actually support this statement, because as far as I know the only "actual" changes to the game to make it more difficult are as follows:

GGG added abilities to "pack leader" type monsters, this happens on some white mobs, but it typically gets put onto rares if possible. This is largely irrelevant though because as we all know it just gives them more "damage", which doesnt matter if you just 1-2 shot them really anyway.

GGG buffed the life and damage of mid level monsters, again this largely doesn't matter because GGG also added "power creep" by increasing the acquisition rate of gear, 6 links, ect.

One could argue that some of the new map mods directly counter some AC classes power, but if it doesnt negatively impact your build a lot of them are just free quantity or packsize.

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Emphasy wrote:

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The problem is GGG can't sustain their "we love the lab" stand with the "but you don't really need to do it until you are more than over ready because we know you hate that shit", on a real game balance state that's not a joke.

That would mean that the actual issue with the lab is that izaro is too hard. If people admit that the lab complains are centered around that Izaro is too hard to beat him without dying I'm fine, but guess what nobody admits that. Because traps make no difference regardless of level, so if you say overleveling makes the lab more enjoyable or less annoying for people the issue is Izaro, not traps. Which means people simply cannot cope with a boss they can't essentially suicide bomb to death.

The thing though is, due to that different style it doesn't really has much merit. You don't need the lab for that. Just imagine you would have to do the Harvest without dying or leaving the area or even just kill Cruel Malachai without dying or leaving the area. A lot of people would not be able to do that.

That's not truth at all.


When you over level you make every aspect of the Lab trivial.
You have more movement skills, lets say "at a lower cool-down".
You have more defenses, against everything, not just Izaro.
All the thrash mobs at that point may not even be there.
More powerful flasks.
Probably more move speed to begin with.
Depending on the build you may even sit on a trap and don't even care.
Every aspect of the Lab gets trivialized.


On the other hand, last time I did the Lab, it was relative on level (before going beyond dry lake on act 4 normal), I was running totems, and Izaro was the most trivial, fast, and irrelevant part of the Lab. I wasted more time going for the keys and fucking around the Lab, than I did "killing" Izaro the 3 times together.


Of course is build dependent, but to say you need to over level because of Izaro or that he's the only thing that gets trivial when you cheese the Lab is absurd.


With those totems I had more chances to die to a bad trap combo and my own stupidity, than to kill Izaro in more than a minute.


With a lvl 60 / 70 build, you don't care about anything at that point.

To make the point clear, I'm against cheesing content, because that just another bullshit excuse a lot of players like to hide behind while dick waving their not really earned "challenges", while players like me and others, try to make the game better and less annoying.

We get flagged as the "we want the game casual", when what we want is the game less stupidly annoying when not necessary, in the name of a fake "difficulty" level is not there anyways.

Most of the white knights are so full of shit in regards of their supposed crusade for a real hardcore game, while cheesing the shit out of every aspect of the game they can.

Some even defend the pay to get a free run of x "services".



Less annoying is not more casual, because hard and stupid are not the same ideas.



SO: IF YOU CAN RUN MOST OF THE GAME WITH OR WITHOUT THE POWER THE ASC POINTS GIVE YOU, THEN THE GAME IS BALANCED ON THE EASIER SIDE, BECAUSE YOU CAN GET ALL THIS EXTRA POWER LATER AND BE OK.

OR YOU CAN GET THE EXTRA POWER RELATIVE EARLIER, AND THEN SHIT OVER MOST OF THE CONTENT EVEN HARDER.

IF YOU WANT HARDER THEN YOU NEED TO BALANCE WITH THE ASC POINTS AS THE BASE POWER LEVEL.

IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD NEED TO MAKE A DECISION OVER WHEN SHOULD THE PLAYERS BE DONE WITH THE LAB.

AND THAT'S A DECISION GGG IS WAY MORE COMFORTABLE NOT HAVING TO MAKE.

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

To make the point clear, I'm against cheesing content, because that just another bullshit excuse a lot of players like to hide behind while dick waving their not really earned "challenges", while players like me and others, try to make the game better and less annoying.

We get flagged as the "we want the game casual", when what we want is the game less stupidly annoying when not necessary, in the name of a fake "difficulty" level is not there anyways.

Most of the white knights are so full of shit in regards of their supposed crusade for a real hardcore game, while cheesing the shit out of every aspect of the game they can.

Some even defend the pay to get a free run of x "services".



Less annoying is not more casual, because hard and stupid are not the same ideas.



SO: IF YOU CAN RUN MOST OF THE GAME WITH OR WITHOUT THE POWER THE ASC POINTS GIVE YOU, THEN THE GAME IS BALANCED ON THE EASIER SIDE, BECAUSE YOU CAN GET ALL THIS EXTRA POWER LATER AND BE OK.

OR YOU CAN GET THE EXTRA POWER RELATIVE EARLIER, AND THEN SHIT OVER MOST OF THE CONTENT EVEN HARDER.

IF YOU WANT HARDER THEN YOU NEED TO BALANCE WITH THE ASC POINTS AS THE BASE POWER LEVEL.

IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD NEED TO MAKE A DECISION OVER WHEN SHOULD THE PLAYERS BE DONE WITH THE LAB.

AND THAT'S A DECISION GGG IS WAY MORE COMFORTABLE NOT HAVING TO MAKE.

You get flagged as casual just as much as you flag us as white knights, hypocrite.

You know maybe some people just don't agree with your definition of either "stupid" or "hard". They are highly subjective and will vary greatly per individual.

Also, your suggestion to "fix" this makes as much sense as a barbershop on the steps to the guillotine.

"White knight" out.

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Xavathos wrote:

You get flagged as casual just as much as you flag us as white knights, hypocrite.

You know maybe some people just don't agree with your definition of either "stupid" or "hard". They are highly subjective and will vary greatly per individual.

Also, your suggestion to "fix" this makes as much sense as a barbershop on the steps to the guillotine.

"White knight" out.

he is literally posting from an account that has 0 characters, I wouldn't give much thought into what he says.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

You get flagged as casual just as much as you flag us as white knights, hypocrite.

You know maybe some people just don't agree with your definition of either "stupid" or "hard". They are highly subjective and will vary greatly per individual.

Also, your suggestion to "fix" this makes as much sense as a barbershop on the steps to the guillotine.

"White knight" out.

he is literally posting from an account that has 0 characters, I wouldn't give much thought into what he says.

Oh, I'm on my phone atm so not checking things like that. Good catch.

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

To make the point clear, I'm against cheesing content, because that just another bullshit excuse a lot of players like to hide behind while dick waving their not really earned "challenges", while players like me and others, try to make the game better and less annoying.

We get flagged as the "we want the game casual", when what we want is the game less stupidly annoying when not necessary, in the name of a fake "difficulty" level is not there anyways.

Most of the white knights are so full of shit in regards of their supposed crusade for a real hardcore game, while cheesing the shit out of every aspect of the game they can.

Some even defend the pay to get a free run of x "services".



Less annoying is not more casual, because hard and stupid are not the same ideas.



SO: IF YOU CAN RUN MOST OF THE GAME WITH OR WITHOUT THE POWER THE ASC POINTS GIVE YOU, THEN THE GAME IS BALANCED ON THE EASIER SIDE, BECAUSE YOU CAN GET ALL THIS EXTRA POWER LATER AND BE OK.

OR YOU CAN GET THE EXTRA POWER RELATIVE EARLIER, AND THEN SHIT OVER MOST OF THE CONTENT EVEN HARDER.

IF YOU WANT HARDER THEN YOU NEED TO BALANCE WITH THE ASC POINTS AS THE BASE POWER LEVEL.

IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU WOULD NEED TO MAKE A DECISION OVER WHEN SHOULD THE PLAYERS BE DONE WITH THE LAB.

AND THAT'S A DECISION GGG IS WAY MORE COMFORTABLE NOT HAVING TO MAKE.

Well I would consider giving GGG a bit more time, until 3.0 hits at least, but if they don't start to choose a solution, it will be the first time in a long while when I'll probably revise my attitude of constant support...

They need to either balance the game around those opie op interactions, and force everyone to play a pinata exploding trivializing meta build, or start to implement smarter gameplay mechanics that reward just that - the gameplay - and stop giving in to speed clearing meta...

To make Labyrinth mandatory at certain level thresholds and a solo experience none the less would be such a change, and would boost the impact of completing the storyline side...

They want to keep the traps, then by God, implement them all over the ride, and add them in all the maps, but as a mean to boost those beautiful pinatas to actually feel more dangerous - or go bonkers on their damage and make them deadly on hit on Softcore at least...

A few more mechanics that add depth to boss fights would be welcomed, even by those casuals that seem to cause the downfall of the difficulty, but you know that making an encounter worth to remember feels so emptied in this game when you just could "rofl stomp" all content while watching TV...

It would be also cool to balance stuff so that you wouldn't feel bad just for choosing another way to play the game instead of meta, as long as you actually feel powerful, you could get by with not having the clearspeed, but when defences in this game are supposed to work diminishingly, so you could get dead easier by just rolling over the top mods on maps, instead of monsters feeling more dangerous as you approach the end of the ride - a gameplay mechanic like Volatile Blood should soften you up a lot instead of just one shoting you - my expectations are abysmal that they'll find a solution...

I simply find it sad that instead of implementing a way to stop the traps - destruction, master switches to be reached in a dedicated manner that implied time consuming mechanics - they kept the shallow depth of making most of them invulnerable to damage, and we know that they could implemented that as we have switches/levers and all those nice time limited destructed traps too...

Meh, you'll never make everyone happy, but they should just focus on finding a perfect balance between "hardcore" and "casual" and either separate those definitions better, or mesh them together as they just stand to lose more by annoying both parts of the community - "the game is not hard enough/the game is too easy" should just be replaced by "the game is so fun, I feel like playing it instead of another option"...

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goetzjam wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

[...]

I'm not sure if you actually know what you are talking about, since the game is being balanced around having ascendancy points, and that power level during leveling basically does not matter since it got so easy now.
During leveling, asc points are either QoL, or build defining.

To ramp up the difficulty and have actually nice content only, GGG need to remove the ways to cheese it : instantly killing bosses before mechanics come into play, and for the lab make some traps nerf regeneration, stuff like this, imho.

Says what changes?

Please by all means actually support this statement

Chris in a podcast, month ago, stated that the points were not seen as optional at GGG's, and that they were tuning up the game accordingly.
Which one, I don't remember, you can look for it if you are interested.

The power creep was added before the life buff and monster dmg, and the ascendancy points are a part of that power creep anyway.

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

[...]

Saying that trash mobs matter when you play totems that already destroy Izaro is beyond a joke honestly .... or even hypocrite.
You get better flask ? Makes no difference against many traps because their damage increase with your life pool.
Better defense ? Most traps don't care either.
Movement skills level's and how much attack speed you have with it at level 40 or level 60 makes basically no difference, it's pretty much the same.

So Chris sayeth and we just accepteth?

I mean my point was that they added the power, way before they "tried" to increase the challenge and I dont feel like AC is necessary to do the majority of the game....

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When you over level you make every aspect of the Lab trivial.
You have more movement skills, lets say "at a lower cool-down".
You have more defenses, against everything, not just Izaro.
All the thrash mobs at that point may not even be there.
More powerful flasks.
Probably more move speed to begin with.
Depending on the build you may even sit on a trap and don't even care.
Every aspect of the Lab gets trivialized.

a) You get any movement skill before reaching A3. And considering that all you have to do is cast LW before the gauntlet to appear behind it that doesn't even mean much.

b) Well yeah Izaro and mobs, but traps care about almost no defense. The only oddity is basalt flasks occuring shorty after the first lab, but you can easily have 6 endurance charges and in cruel you also have your basalt. And that's it, there is hardly anything that effects Traps behind this, most other notable benefits for running the lab are actually locked behind the Lab like Wicked Ward. And of course you can get higher life reg, but since a lot of the utility flasks are not avaible in the normal lab you likely have a bunch of health flasks, which do the same

c) All those trash mobs don't matter in the first place. The lab is not a map with any difficulty added on top. It is just a regular area with a slightly above average mob density. Those trash mobs matter as much as any other trash mobs in any A3 area... actually they matter less because the mobs encountered in the lab are mostly of a very easy kind.

d) Yeah exactly one more powerful flask, the basalt, which is avaible shortly after the normal lab at lvl40. Beyond that there is no other useful Flask to get.

e) Well this depends, with Nomics you can have 40% increased movespeed, considering that normal is easy enough that you need neither a high life roll nor a high anything on them most players will wear any unique boots that give them speed, I usually use Nomics, yes you take more physical damage with essentially increases almost all damage you take in the lab, but people doing lab runs with Abyssus and that has a higher penalty. Otherwise Wanderlust are easy way. Also I usually have Screaming Eagles on weapon swap, just because they are so cheap and provide such an incredible speed boost. Because I hate leveling I know how to make it less painful and most of it helps with doing the lab early too.

f) Yeah if you have wicked ward that is easily possible. However to get wicked ward you need to do the lab first. Also of course the burning ground is essentially a non-issue for RF builds but then again it does so little damage that you can just run over it regardless and just flask yourself through.

The only reason why people skip it early is Izaro. This is the only reason, if it would just be an endless trap gauntlet that would be fine. But Izaro is tough and in difference to other tough bosses like Daresso or Malachai you can't die your way through. When I skip doing the lab early it is essentially only because I'm not confident that I can do Izaro without issues and I also know that I can basically oneshot him later and safe time overall if I do all 3 labs once I'm ready to do maps.

So reason a) is that Izaro is too hard for people at lvl35 and b) is that it is more efficient to run all 3 labs back to back, because doing Izaro on his level takes a lot more time.

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Of course is build dependent, but to say you need to over level because of Izaro or that he's the only thing that gets trivial when you cheese the Lab is absurd.

I don't say you "need" but that is the reason why people are doing it. Because traps are so easy and it is not that hard to even proof that. I do all the trials as soon as I encounter them. The first ones you actually encounter before you get movement skills and it is hardly an issue. The thing is you normally run around with 4 life flasks and one quicksilver or 3 life flasks one mana and one quicksilver. And with those flasks on a life build, which essentially all builds are at that point traps are incredible easy. The gauntlets are not long enough that you exhaust the quicksilver (in the lab, in trials it could happen) and the life flasks are enough to essentially just run through traps.

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SO: IF YOU CAN RUN MOST OF THE GAME WITH OR WITHOUT THE POWER THE ASC POINTS GIVE YOU, THEN THE GAME IS BALANCED ON THE EASIER SIDE, BECAUSE YOU CAN GET ALL THIS EXTRA POWER LATER AND BE OK.

You can, but then again the power difference between different builds is so huge that this doesn't say much. My Pizza Sticks Inquisitor could likely do almost as fine as a regular templer and still be a lot stronger than many other builds. My old RF-Totem Chieftain would be a total pain to play because totems only last for 4 seconds. When I did my Deaths Harp barrage char I actually noticed the difference because getting free poison vs. not getting free poison and maim makes a huge difference. When my Inquisitor got his crit mult against ignited enemies and crit chance against enemies without stat effects it felt like whatever. The game before maps is so incredible easy that you might will likely do fine even if you skill only stat points (otherwise you couldn't equip items^^).

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Says what changes?

Please by all means actually support this statement, because as far as I know the only "actual" changes to the game to make it more difficult are as follows:

GGG added abilities to "pack leader" type monsters, this happens on some white mobs, but it typically gets put onto rares if possible. This is largely irrelevant though because as we all know it just gives them more "damage", which doesnt matter if you just 1-2 shot them really anyway.

GGG buffed the life and damage of mid level monsters, again this largely doesn't matter because GGG also added "power creep" by increasing the acquisition rate of gear, 6 links, ect.

One could argue that some of the new map mods directly counter some AC classes power, but if it doesnt negatively impact your build a lot of them are just free quantity or packsize.

Well they did increase the damage of some mob skills (very noticable are the goatman fireballs), however the biggest change is the new map bosses. Trash mobs were always laughable and they would have to reduce power a lot to change that. I think going with more meaningful boss fights is a better choice anyway, however they do have to shift damage vs. sturdyness and rewards on some of them. But honestly if you compare Factory or Arcade to the old bosses they are far more intimidating. Of course some only slightly modified enemies are still pushovers, but exspecially some of the new additions are actually dangerous.