SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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ShaUrley wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Then they get attacked on the feedback forum for not wanting to shoot rabbits.

You're only complaining because you aren't able to hit the rabbits. Learn to shoot.

You rabbit-haters just want free rabbit meat -- I suppose you expect them to run up to you and flop down dead at your feet? Besides, you don't have to eat rabbits if you don't like them, or you can pay someone else to eat the rabbits if you're too bad at eating. It's no big deal anyway because it takes no time at all to swallow a rabbit. Only a few picky eaters like you keep on complaining about how bad they taste. ;)

No I want to Ski. Fuck rabbits and they taste funny anyway.

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Emphasy wrote:

And honestly I am a lot more convinced that people just want to get rid of the lab because they struggle to do it. Not being able to just die your way through like you could with most other content and even partially in maps is something people might be afraid of. Because the argument that the lab is boring is a stupid one, whole normal difficulty is boring and it is still around, for many people anything before mapping is boring. If it is just boring it wouldn't be too hard to do those few runs and be done with it. The same goes if you don't like it for whatever reason, just go through it and be done. The only reason why you wouldn't like it is because you can't do it. People essentially want an easier way to get ascendancy points, that is the main reason for the complains.

Translation: "Your opinion is wrong and you are wrong to find content boring, because I find it interesting and fun.

Oh, and by the way you are lying when you state your opinion that it is boring. You actually just suck and want an EZ mode."

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Turtledove wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

It's not necessarily bad design, its more like that event in the olympics where they cross country ski then kill something with a gun and keep skiing.

Now imagine if they sold it as a cross country ski then in the middle hand you a gun , err what.

We played this game to play an ARG then in the middle they add this frogger shit. Worse you can't finish your character until you learn to shoot rabbits and like it.

I like that analogy! Someone then goes to the cross country feedback forum and says, "I've been doing cross country skiing for 5 years and now I have to shoot rabbits! I don't like that. Can't we make the shooting rabbit part optional." Then they get attacked on the feedback forum for not wanting to shoot rabbits.

It IS optional!

You can play every part of the game's content without ever touching lab. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to run lab, right? Then it's optional.

It is actually by definition an optional quest and here you sit claiming otherwise. Why? Because you want to get paid without working.

You're making this easier every day, Turtle.

Personally I think lab traps should be added in all game maps (they're not hard anyway, according to anti-lab posters themselves), but I don't feel like making 10 threads about 280 threads about 800 posters about 18000 lab issues, since current solution is pretty much OPTIMAL.
Actually this was already said hundreds of time before, so it is redundant, but I have to do this to make post coherent.
You have a reward for completing them, you have a reward for racing them, and it is exactly how it works for any other content in the game (for just one exception which is covered later in this post).

I saw it before, how people has completely lost the perspective on their position, and it happened in PoE as well. Game loses its point, if you simply shape it with a handwave whenever you don't feel like doing something. But they say, I don't want leveling, I don't want labyrinth, I don't want challenges, I'm bored, so I demand to remove everything and leave PoE v0.6 lvl 100 endless gorge with uniques sold at vendor. That would be perfect, I already played everything anyway, lets just ruin it entirely. Just simplify it, they say, "the game of this genre should not be played like that", or "I have come to play a different type of game". And since its the terminal point of conviction, you're left with gathering hundreds of threads of people that also do not want to play the game or play something else, but in place of the current one.

In my view, the bigger issue is an opportunity to buy shaper/guardian uniques for 2fuse, tabula for 3.50, to rush through 3 difficulties with -10% ice res and shatter in cruel library. That sounds like something that would build the anti-lab mentality, since ascendancy is the only thing in the game you can't just simply put in your pocket off the market stall and rush to maps again.
But I don't see myself setting up selffound camp to vouch for complete trade removal, under guise of removing botting, trade spam and relying on third-party services. Maybe because trading is also a choice of your own.
So, with all respect there is, I am making this post just to say, that I look forward for your movement never gaining enough influence to make game content deficient.

For the sake of other players that have to lose gameplay value because of your caprice.

@Gehinom, loved your post. It was truly amazing how you continually danced so close and around coherency yet never actually embraced it. A true work of art.

When you can do Lab and get the points at lvl 33 or 70, then the game balance is fucked, since you can get to the end game with or without the power those points give.

Lab is optional in this sense, but nobody would consider their build finished without the ASC points, even if they over level and come back when the content is trivial, because the real end game content, is tuned to the most hardcore audience.

Which is fine.

The problem is you fucked 80% of the game content balance, because you know you can't make Lab less optional than this, because then a lot more players that do the Lab at the last possible moment just to get the points, would start joining the haters.

So the result is the game balance is fucked and on the easier side.

If ASC points were properly added into the characters progression, then you could really tune the game difficulty up.

The problem is GGG can't sustain their "we love the lab" stand with the "but you don't really need to do it until you are more than over ready because we know you hate that shit", on a real game balance state that's not a joke.

So If you wanna take the "stop making the game so casual" stand, then commit to it and demand mandatory Lab as a requirement to progress to the next difficulty level. So you can actually know what power level you need to tune your game to.

And then let's see how many players are actually ok with having to do the Lab in order to get the ASC points without cheese. Or really want more real difficulty added to the game.

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The problem is GGG can't sustain their "we love the lab" stand with the "but you don't really need to do it until you are more than over ready because we know you hate that shit", on a real game balance state that's not a joke.

That would mean that the actual issue with the lab is that izaro is too hard. If people admit that the lab complains are centered around that Izaro is too hard to beat him without dying I'm fine, but guess what nobody admits that. Because traps make no difference regardless of level, so if you say overleveling makes the lab more enjoyable or less annoying for people the issue is Izaro, not traps. Which means people simply cannot cope with a boss they can't essentially suicide bomb to death.

The thing though is, due to that different style it doesn't really has much merit. You don't need the lab for that. Just imagine you would have to do the Harvest without dying or leaving the area or even just kill Cruel Malachai without dying or leaving the area. A lot of people would not be able to do that.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

It's not necessarily bad design, its more like that event in the olympics where they cross country ski then kill something with a gun and keep skiing.

Now imagine if they sold it as a cross country ski then in the middle hand you a gun , err what.

We played this game to play an ARG then in the middle they add this frogger shit. Worse you can't finish your character until you learn to shoot rabbits and like it.

I like that analogy! Someone then goes to the cross country feedback forum and says, "I've been doing cross country skiing for 5 years and now I have to shoot rabbits! I don't like that. Can't we make the shooting rabbit part optional." Then they get attacked on the feedback forum for not wanting to shoot rabbits.

It IS optional!

You can play every part of the game's content without ever touching lab. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to run lab, right? Then it's optional.

It is actually by definition an optional quest and here you sit claiming otherwise. Why? Because you want to get paid without working.

You're making this easier every day, Turtle.

Actually the shooting is optional you can take a huge penalty and still win the race if you come in at 10% of the time as the other contestants.

And your chance of winning and doing the tuned end game content is the same.
Analogy still holds.

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

When you can do Lab and get the points at lvl 33 or 70, then the game balance is fucked, since you can get to the end game with or without the power those points give.

Lab is optional in this sense, but nobody would consider their build finished without the ASC points, even if they over level and come back when the content is trivial, because the real end game content, is tuned to the most hardcore audience.

Which is fine.

The problem is you fucked 80% of the game content balance, because you know you can't make Lab less optional than this, because then a lot more players that do the Lab at the last possible moment just to get the points, would start joining the haters.

So the result is the game balance is fucked and on the easier side.

If ASC points were properly added into the characters progression, then you could really tune the game difficulty up.

The problem is GGG can't sustain their "we love the lab" stand with the "but you don't really need to do it until you are more than over ready because we know you hate that shit", on a real game balance state that's not a joke.

So If you wanna take the "stop making the game so casual" stand, then commit to it and demand mandatory Lab as a requirement to progress to the next difficulty level. So you can actually know what power level you need to tune your game to.

And then let's see how many players are actually ok with having to do the Lab in order to get the ASC points without cheese. Or really want more real difficulty added to the game.

They are re-tuning the game for a reason.

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qwqwqw333_final wrote:

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I'm not sure if you actually know what you are talking about, since the game is being balanced around having ascendancy points, and that power level during leveling basically does not matter since it got so easy now.
During leveling, asc points are either QoL, or build defining.

To ramp up the difficulty and have actually nice content only, GGG need to remove the ways to cheese it : instantly killing bosses before mechanics come into play, and for the lab make some traps nerf regeneration, stuff like this, imho.