SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Turtledove wrote:

Whenever a new big boss is added to the game there is the expected avalanche of complaints about him. (frequently followed with some minor nerfs) Izaro was no different. What has definitely been different about labyrinth is that the avalanche of complaints about the other horrible design flaws with labyrinth has vastly overwhelmed all other complaints about any other content complained about in the game. The horrible design flaw you point out has had far more threads created to complain about it than even Izaro. Labyrinth was a design fiasco, IMHO.

Ya, thats a good point, I remember people complaining about Malachai. They have nerfed him since, but i dont think they gave enough time before the nerf. That boss fight just doesnt feel that hard anymore because ive learned it so well. The only Breachlord I disagree with right now is Chayula, but not because of the difficulty of the boss itself, but because of the amount of time/currency it takes to actually get the breachstone.

I watched Mathil run one of these and not even a blessing dropped. After I saw that, I was literally like, well guess im just gonna get my chaos for my splinters.

Anyway I dont want to derail this thread, thanks for taking the time and what I image to be a pretty large effort to mantain a running count and total of posters and threads for the Lab issues.

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Johny_Snow wrote:

This will fall on a deaf ears I am afraid. People will just come and claim how they are not mandatory at all, how you can play the game the same way and beat it without them(even though doing so ignores almost the entirety of the so called "expansion") and how only the chosen ones can acquire them. So keep preaching.

Lol, just decided to see what the first reply was to this thread. 4k posts later...

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I would go for that. As an added bonus I'd pay $5 for the mtx of changing "lazy" to "hates lab".

edit:
Sorry Phrazz, I was late in checking the list. Thank you for voicing your feedback to GGG on the labyrinth. I've added you to the list. You're number 685 on the list. This is the list of people that have voiced an opinion that the labyrinth needs to be improved or made optional. Don't give up hope on GGG. They will likely fix it in 3.0. Release 3.0 will be a major release with major changes. It will apparently require changes to the way ascendancy points are rewarded, since they say a difficulty level may be removed. So I think that they will just move the ascendancy points out of Labyrinth completely and make them rewards for a new challenge being planned for 3.0. The reason I believe this is because GGG has historically shown themselves to be smart and successful and they will continue to be smart and successful in 3.0. As the list grows longer our voices grow stronger. Over 280 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 680 posters in support[/quote]


you got proof of any kind when you claim they will likely fix it in 3.0 ? I mean it's obvious something is gonna change since chris did say he wants to remove cruel difficulty entirely when act 5 is implemented but i have not seen or read anything that would suggest in what way. for all we know it will still be that the ascendancy points are locked to labyrinth.

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Mrowen70 wrote:

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I would go for that. As an added bonus I'd pay $5 for the mtx of changing "lazy" to "hates lab".

edit:
Sorry Phrazz, I was late in checking the list. Thank you for voicing your feedback to GGG on the labyrinth. I've added you to the list. You're number 685 on the list. This is the list of people that have voiced an opinion that the labyrinth needs to be improved or made optional. Don't give up hope on GGG. They will likely fix it in 3.0. Release 3.0 will be a major release with major changes. It will apparently require changes to the way ascendancy points are rewarded, since they say a difficulty level may be removed. So I think that they will just move the ascendancy points out of Labyrinth completely and make them rewards for a new challenge being planned for 3.0. The reason I believe this is because GGG has historically shown themselves to be smart and successful and they will continue to be smart and successful in 3.0. As the list grows longer our voices grow stronger. Over 280 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 680 posters in support

you got proof of any kind when you claim they will likely fix it in 3.0 ? I mean it's obvious something is gonna change since chris did say he wants to remove cruel difficulty entirely when act 5 is implemented but i have not seen or read anything that would suggest in what way. for all we know it will still be that the ascendancy points are locked to labyrinth.

There is no proof. In the text you quoted I stated the hope, the reasoning behind the hope, and my own guess at general liklihood that the hope will be realized. Which is the issue that is the theme of this thread.

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Don't give up hope on GGG. They will likely fix it in 3.0. Release 3.0 will be a major release with major changes. It will apparently require changes to the way ascendancy points are rewarded, since they say a difficulty level may be removed. So I think that they will just move the ascendancy points out of Labyrinth completely and make them rewards for a new challenge being planned for 3.0. The reason I believe this is because GGG has historically shown themselves to be smart and successful and they will continue to be smart and successful in 3.0.

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.

A little snippet from the recent Podcast with Carl (starting at 1:10:00).

LNB asks Carl why breaches aren't in the uber-lab or any of the labs. Carl explains that people running the uber-lab are there with a specific focus (and god forbid they should alienate any players by interfering with that) and continues (1:11:11):

Carl: Either I'm running the uber-lab and I'm going to do it fast and get a lot of keys, or I want my damn ascendancy points. I'm going to go there and get through it this time.

PT: [under breath] Just give us a different way of getting them. [resigned laugh]

Carl: [nervous laugh, changes subject] So the uber-lab has this task and when we discussed it ok that's not where the league is meant to go.


The topic of putting ascendancy points behind the lab seems to be the one thing GGG absolutely refuses to address. Guilty conscience, perhaps?

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ShaUrley wrote:

A little snippet from the recent Podcast with Carl (starting at 1:10:00).

LNB asks Carl why breaches aren't in the uber-lab or any of the labs. Carl explains that people running the uber-lab are there with a specific focus (and god forbid they should alienate any players by interfering with that) and continues (1:11:11):

Carl: Either I'm running the uber-lab and I'm going to do it fast and get a lot of keys, or I want my damn ascendancy points. I'm going to go there and get through it this time.

PT: [under breath] Just give us a different way of getting them. [resigned laugh]

Carl: [nervous laugh, changes subject] So the uber-lab has this task and when we discussed it ok that's not where the league is meant to go.


The topic of putting ascendancy points behind the lab seems to be the one thing GGG absolutely refuses to address. Guilty conscience, perhaps?

Because they've addressed it multiple times before, in various other podcast.

IDK why you people keep thinking that GGG doesn't or hasn't commented about the lab. They like the lab as is, they don't really care if you enjoy it or not, because you do it "to get your damn ac points"

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ShaUrley wrote:

A little snippet from the recent Podcast with Carl (starting at 1:10:00).

LNB asks Carl why breaches aren't in the uber-lab or any of the labs. Carl explains that people running the uber-lab are there with a specific focus (and god forbid they should alienate any players by interfering with that) and continues (1:11:11):

Carl: Either I'm running the uber-lab and I'm going to do it fast and get a lot of keys, or I want my damn ascendancy points. I'm going to go there and get through it this time.

PT: [under breath] Just give us a different way of getting them. [resigned laugh]

Carl: [nervous laugh, changes subject] So the uber-lab has this task and when we discussed it ok that's not where the league is meant to go.


The topic of putting ascendancy points behind the lab seems to be the one thing GGG absolutely refuses to address. Guilty conscience, perhaps?

I assume that there has been a conclusion at GGG that coming out with any information at this point is a no win proposition. As I've stated before, don't give up hope on GGG. They will likely fix it in 3.0. I hope this because release 3.0 will be a major release with major changes. It will apparently require changes to the way ascendancy points are rewarded, since they say a difficulty level may be removed. So I think that they will just move the ascendancy points out of Labyrinth completely and make them rewards for a new challenge being planned for 3.0. GGG has historically shown themselves to be smart and successful. They know that labyrinth is alienating to many ARPG fans. They will want to continue to be smart and successful into the future.

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ShaUrley wrote:

A little snippet from the recent Podcast with Carl (starting at 1:10:00).

LNB asks Carl why breaches aren't in the uber-lab or any of the labs. Carl explains that people running the uber-lab are there with a specific focus (and god forbid they should alienate any players by interfering with that) and continues (1:11:11):

Carl: Either I'm running the uber-lab and I'm going to do it fast and get a lot of keys, or I want my damn ascendancy points. I'm going to go there and get through it this time.

PT: [under breath] Just give us a different way of getting them. [resigned laugh]

Carl: [nervous laugh, changes subject] So the uber-lab has this task and when we discussed it ok that's not where the league is meant to go.


The topic of putting ascendancy points behind the lab seems to be the one thing GGG absolutely refuses to address. Guilty conscience, perhaps?

Thats a nice catch actually, i havent given the podcast much attention lately and totally missed that. Yeah from all the streamers ive only seen/heard Kripp, PT and Mathil critisize lab publicly. PT even had the balls to make a very straight forward lab-related question to Chris on the recent 3-part interview in ziggyd channel, which ofcourse again was ignored, and now this again, which once again was ignored.
Even LiftingNerd on some recent youtube content said about how he enjoys very much the loot explosions on the uber lab and generally everyone only praises uber lab for the rewards but nobody for the actual gameplay or the design (hmm except the very funny die-hard lab supporters that always lurk around here). Weird isnt it?

How nice would it actually be for some streamers to actually support logical suggestions instead of licking GGG balls all the time? *cough*

Even more weird why GGG still keeps ignoring and not adressing even at the slightest any lab related question? Maybe because the last time something lab related was announced (uber lab introduction) it backfired with thousands of comments in the news post made by Bex? The idea that they have a contract bidding them to remain silent when it comes to lab is the most reasonable explanation and its already in tin-foil territory.

Also liers and clowns please stop posting lies and jokes unless you can prove them, which you cant or you would have. Are you on GGG's payroll or something?

Anyway, GGG your game remains still very good despite some performance issues *cough* no shadow turning off in dx11 *cough*, breachmobs droping fps bombs etc. but this issue here will always be a nail to every old time arpg fan/player's back. Keep the labyrinth as it is now but only as a farming place which is soo good as anyone who have done even once can assure you, but please decouple character progression tools aka ascendancy points from something that much alienating and anti-rpg like, its not even slightly unreasonable what we have been asking for so long. Put it behind content similar to the core PoE. Anyway challenges done and ill take some time off poe again, i hope you can see reasoning or at least adress it and say your thoughs about it.

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TenTonBlue wrote:

The only problem I really have with it, is getting disconnected. Getting disconnected in the middle of Normal-Merciless Lab feels awful. I generally dont even do ascendancy until level 70 and then blaze through Normal and Cruel. Wait till 80 to do Merciless easy mode. But even this shows poor design of the area, because im just basically trivializing it so i can run through it as fast as possible.

Getting disconnected in Uber lab, is just fucking infuriating. Uber Lab is a challenge, and when you make it past 2 Izaro fights and you're just like, cmon 1 more, and then you dc from changing areas, "holy hell" mother of god. Not only is your time wasted, but the offering to the goddess is currency. Also you dont get your helm enchant, or Treasure keys all because of something thats completely out of your control.

The design flaw you are observing is piñata-based reward systems. Blizzard North figured out a long time ago in D2 that such systems are heavily damaging to ARPG gameplay, but sometimes we have to learn things the hard way, and this is an example of GGG having to do so. ;)

If the Labyrinth weren't such an end-heavy, all-or-nothing experience, miscellaneous network hiccups would not be nearly as frustrating.

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The best suggestion I've seen is having a checkpoint system. Now to be clear, this doesnt allow you to leave the Lab at all or die. It simply means the game compensates for logging out/DC's. You would essentially have a checkpoint in the Aspirants Trial room where your chest is. If you need to log out, or get DC'd when you reopen the game, your character will spawn in that room. If you die or leave the lab, then your run is still over and you have to start from scratch again. Also when the Lab changes layouts it would treat it as stepping out of the lab so you cant cheese the stages.

The guy who suggested this actually wanted the feature implemented so he didnt have to do the lab in 1 go, but it would also be great for dc's. It doesnt change the fact that you still cant die in the Lab either. Nor could you leave to go run a map or trade or anything else. It simply would help with the DC and need to log out.

Unfortunately, this will likely not be considered a valid option by GGG since they still believe in balancing around alt+F4 instead of implementing a logout timer (God knows why...), and that very balance decision informed their decision not to implement waypoints or multiple portals in the lab.

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TenTonBlue wrote:

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Johny_Snow wrote:

This will fall on a deaf ears I am afraid. People will just come and claim how they are not mandatory at all, how you can play the game the same way and beat it without them(even though doing so ignores almost the entirety of the so called "expansion") and how only the chosen ones can acquire them. So keep preaching.

Lol, just decided to see what the first reply was to this thread. 4k posts later...

Prophetic, isn't it.

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ShaUrley wrote:

Carl: Either I'm running the uber-lab and I'm going to do it fast and get a lot of keys, or I want my damn ascendancy points. I'm going to go there and get through it this time.

Even GGG devs seem to agree with what I said above:

The Labyrinth sucks to spend time on; you just want to get through it as fast as possible. The Labyrinth is great fun to FINISH and not so fun to PLAY.

That there, ladies and gentlemen, is the Labyrinth's largest problem, even greater than the unfun traps. I'm not sure how you'd go about fixing it, but I am confident that no tweak to the Labyrinth will help it if it doesn't address that singular flaw.

It's very enjoyable to die on Uber Traps during the holidays...

It relieves so much stress....

I Would do it 100 times a day if i could...