SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Shredzilly wrote:

@Goetzjam

You name it watering down the Content, I name it making more People happy, while having the SAME Content + another Way to get Ascendancies.
The Lab can stay as it is, so you can still enjoy it, get your Ascendancy Points there and be happy.
By offering a different Way to obtain Ascendancies all the Lab Haters would be happy to.
Win / Win , except you just like that the Ascendancies are gated behind the Lab so you are not able to carry Folks for Dough through it.

And about the Argument about Changes won´t happen because Chris said something about it or whatnot...they refused to implement Perma-Loot for a loooong time.. but changed it at last and I haven´t seen a Post about how bad that Decision was, everybody like it now and you can still change it to timed or free for all.

About the Trade changes not beeing implemented : After all this Years and seeing how GGG implements new Stuff and tries to fix old Issues and so on I honestly think that they are not capable of doing it technically properly.
The Armour Projectile Bug is there like forever, the Usability of this Game is mediocre at best, the Balance Team is out of Balance itself....

Except it doesn't work like that, lab haters will push further and further until the easiest and "best" way to get AC is via this alternative way, instead of the lab, like it was designed.


Perm loot is a vastly different issue, it wasn't about the content, it was about the negative aspect that it created between party members in a game designed around selling mtx's that make your character look better.

I knew someone would bring up perm-loot and compare it to "well GGG can change", yes they can but only if they realize what they did is wrong or detrimental, in which case of divisive content isn't the same as a divisive looting aspect. Poe's content is loot, but the allocation methods aren't anywhere near the same as actual game content, like the lab.


I won't go into detail (because I already have previously on this topic), but quite a few people that dislike the lab have this notion that they tried it once and they don't like it, or they tried it a couple of times and it just doesnt fit. People said the same thing about act 4, people will say the same thing about act 5, but the stubbornness of these players that try and give feedback that they have an issue with something, but hardly have the experience to back it up.


Even one of the people I respect the most in this game I don't see eye to eye on 2 key issues, trading and the lab. He feels that trading should just be an AH and he rather slay things then interact with item trades, which is fine for games that don't really revolve around an economy as much or MMOs that have other main focuses instead of just items, but items are what enable or allow builds to function.

He dislikes the lab for similar reasons as people that have posted in this, it ignores most defensive abilities (he builds all of his characters to live first and foremost) and the trap gameplay is different. Different doesn't mean bad, different just means you need to play in such a way that is different from the core game experience, which is a breath of fresh air for people as well.

We somewhat agree on masters, but disagree on why. I think masters just were an excuse to get rid of eternals and a high increase in power creep, he doesn't like masters because it removes a key element of finding loot or making it.


Regardless the largest issue in this game right now IMO is power creep and the inability to create anything new without adding additional power. It is a hard task without needing to rebalance things along the way, we pretty much see absolutely no passive tree changes and very little AC tree changes now, IMO thats not a good thing.


I want the game to be the best version it can be and it can't be that if GGG has to duplicate content in order to satisfy people complaining.

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The_Reporter wrote:

I'm certain he's every bit as 'good' as you are. We all know it's not about skill anyway. It's about having the right cheese kit.

Probably why you are not getting it either ...

If you feel the need to "cheese" the lab to complete it, that means that you are just not good at it.
I don't think that I ever cheesed to be honest ... no wait, I'm sure I never actually did.

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Shredzilly wrote:

@Fruz
I am not salty I try to give and get Feedback so the Game might change to what I think is for the better.

I´m sorry, my bad, if you have a hard time understanding what I mean that´s on me, I try to rephrase my second Part, so you might get it..
" That is why I ask if anybody likes the Mechanics of Traps, that will kill you in half a second if you stand still or have a DC or something similiar, regardless your Level and Difficultiy you are playing on "

Besides that, I have run round about 20 Chars through the Lab and never died to a Trap.
Is that enough to your Standards on runnning the Lab properly ?

And you think that throwing false claims is a good way of providing feedback ?
I don't think so.
I bolded that part that I am referring to for example.

20 char through all 3 ( or even uber if you want ) labs ?
That's definitely enough to be not too sucky at it, how much time you spend on those traps also matters, but 20 ascended char without a death definitely shows that you don't suck at it as much as I though, or should I say as much as your first posts here would let people think.

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The_Reporter wrote:

And not only that, the user hasn't even made it through hc merciless lab yet. How could one consider themselves an expert without having the experience to back the claim up?

What ? Oo what is this new nonsense now ?

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Except it doesn't work like that, lab haters will push further and further until the easiest and "best" way to get AC is via this alternative way, instead of the lab, like it was designed.

Nobody said it should be easy to get the AC-Points outside of the Lab.
There are lots of good Ideas to seperate them.

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Perm loot is a vastly different issue, it wasn't about the content, it was about the negative aspect that it created between party members in a game designed around selling mtx's that make your character look better.

I knew someone would bring up perm-loot and compare it to "well GGG can change", yes they can but only if they realize what they did is wrong or detrimental, in which case of divisive content isn't the same as a divisive looting aspect. Poe's content is loot, but the allocation methods aren't anywhere near the same as actual game content, like the lab.

Different Thing but same Outcome : Negative Aspect.

I get a bad, bored, very negative Feeling with a new Char that I have to do the Lab to get the Ascendancy Points.
My Friendlist is Offline except for 2 People, all because of the Lab, the two Remaining hate the Lab aswell but just do it.
If a Part of a Game creates such a negative Aspect to a Minority or a Majority as I think it really is, then something is clearly wrong with a Design-Decision and should be rethinked.

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I won't go into detail (because I already have previously on this topic), but quite a few people that dislike the lab have this notion that they tried it once and they don't like it, or they tried it a couple of times and it just doesnt fit. People said the same thing about act 4, people will say the same thing about act 5, but the stubbornness of these players that try and give feedback that they have an issue with something, but hardly have the experience to back it up.

If something exists in a Game that you have to do to get something that makes your Char that better, but you hate it, do you think that these Guys run it over and over just to get the Experience to back it up ?
Most of my Friendlist People have quit because of the Lab! No way in Hell can you tell them "Dude, just run it 50 times more, you may like it.."
I´ve run the Lab with aprox. 20 Chars, not died to a Trap once, still hate it.
Enough Experience to back my Feelings about the Lab, but I´ve could have told you that the very first Moment I entered it.

"..."

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I want the game to be the best version it can be and it can't be that if GGG has to duplicate content in order to satisfy people complaining.

I want the Game to be the best Version it can be and it can be that if GGG reworks Content in order to satisfy more People.

@Fruz

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Shredzilly wrote:

....... half a second

half a second to 2+ seconds depending on Trap and Circumstances ffs :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNd8HnSbDOs

go to min 3:52 to see half a sec Death in Action.
Sure, the Guy who Runs the lab is not very well trained, but you get my Point.

The guy is at ~40% buffer, is being hit by mobs, AND on top of a trap.
This is not just a trap killing him in half a second.

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Nobody said it should be easy to get the AC-Points outside of the Lab.
There are lots of good Ideas to seperate them.

The only "good" idea is to still keep the AC points in the lab and offer a less trap invasive path that requires more puzzles and more distance to travel.

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Different Thing but same Outcome : Negative Aspect.

I get a bad, bored, very negative Feeling with a new Char that I have to do the Lab to get the Ascendancy Points.
My Friendlist is Offline except for 2 People, all because of the Lab, the two Remaining hate the Lab aswell but just do it.
If a Part of a Game creates such a negative Aspect to a Minority or a Majority as I think it really is, then something is clearly wrong with a Design-Decision and should be rethinked.

So its different and should be treated differently, again one is content the other is a design practice they wanted onto this game. Hell with loot filters now, temp allocation would probably be fine.

Your friendslist is offline because perhaps its basically 2 months into the league and people are already bored?

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If something exists in a Game that you have to do to get something that makes your Char that better, but you hate it, do you think that these Guys run it over and over just to get the Experience to back it up ?
Most of my Friendlist People have quit because of the Lab! No way in Hell can you tell them "Dude, just run it 50 times more, you may like it.."
I´ve run the Lab with aprox. 20 Chars, not died to a Trap once, still hate it.
Enough Experience to back my Feelings about the Lab, but I´ve could have told you that the very first Moment I entered it.

There is a difference between running it to get the reward and bitching through the process and some of the people here that just ran it once (DIDNT EVEN COMPLETE MERCILESS OR ENDGAME LAB) and just complain like babies. Yet here in this topic are people like that. People that just don't care about it except they have to work in order to gain this massive power spike, not only that but they are perm league players, which can avoid playing the lab even more then temp league characters.

I highly doubt it. You are saying that over 50% of your friends list no longer plays this game because of the lab? Yeah ok.

I don't need them to run it 50 times, I need them to understand how to avoid death and navigate the lab, once they do that part they are far less likely to complain. This is true for ANY NEW CONTENT, people just complain because they don't want to do the challenge. Pathetic if you ask me.

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I want the Game to be the best Version it can be and it can be that if GGG reworks Content in order to satisfy more People.

That isn't how this game should work. Catering to whinny babies won't make the game better. If the lab is too much for you or anyone in this thread, say your piece and leave. GGG has made every indication it possibly can to say the lab isn't going to change and sticking around here and posting replies on a 9 month old thread won't result in any changes either.

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This is not just a trap killing him in half a second.

Yep, not only that but no instant pot either, this guy is clearly level 60+ because of the pot he is using and has that little life\hybrid, which is actually punished harder as well. He runs with the meat tenderizer and probably experienced some sort of lag\connection issue that makes him appear like he isn't on the trap for part of the time, when he is taking damage. Its in these moments that life pots, when properly rolled would save lives. Hell even using a movement skill is enough to avoid situations like these.

A good player would learn from this and not fall prey to it next time a bad player would complain on the forums about how tough it is. I also think in this specific instance its BEFORE the ES changes were made so hes essentially taking double damage from having that ES. So even the complaint here in that video has already been addressed.

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The only "good" idea is to still keep the AC points in the lab and offer a less trap invasive path that requires more puzzles and more distance to travel.

This might be the only good Idea for you, but there are other People with other Opinions.

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So its different and should be treated differently, again one is content the other is a design practice they wanted onto this game. Hell with loot filters now, temp allocation would probably be fine.

Your friendslist is offline because perhaps its basically 2 months into the league and people are already bored?

That makes no sense, even if it is different it can be treated the same.
When you say "should be" it is again your Opinion, but as mentioned above other People have other Opinions.

My Friendlist is Oflline because of the Lab, not League Ending or something else.
Everbody said literally "F*** the Lab, bye".

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There is a difference between running it to get the reward and bitching through the process and some of the people here that just ran it once (DIDNT EVEN COMPLETE MERCILESS OR ENDGAME LAB) and just complain like babies. Yet here in this topic are people like that. People that just don't care about it except they have to work in order to gain this massive power spike, not only that but they are perm league players, which can avoid playing the lab even more then temp league characters.

I highly doubt it. You are saying that over 50% of your friends list no longer plays this game because of the lab? Yeah ok.

I don't need them to run it 50 times, I need them to understand how to avoid death and navigate the lab, once they do that part they are far less likely to complain. This is true for ANY NEW CONTENT, people just complain because they don't want to do the challenge. Pathetic if you ask me.

There is a difference between Feedback, crying, bitching and calling People Babies etc..
In my Experience Arguments are better heard if Insults are left out.

You highly doubt that 50 % of my lriends left because of Lab?
I know that it is true.
On the other Side I highly doubt that only a Minority hates the Lab, why ? Because nearly everybody left of my Friends because of it.

I have run the Lab over 60 times and I will still complain as long as I am playing.

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That isn't how this game should work. Catering to whinny babies won't make the game better. If the lab is too much for you or anyone in this thread, say your piece and leave. GGG has made every indication it possibly can to say the lab isn't going to change and sticking around here and posting replies on a 9 month old thread won't result in any changes either.

Again, calling People "whinny Babies" will most likely have the effect that smart People won´t take you serious anymore.
The Fact that GGG isn´t responding to a 320 Pages Thread is not so much an Indicator that something will or will not be changed but for me it is an Indicator of very bad Customer Interaction.
Even a short " Hey Guys, we noticed that something is going on here, but we can´t take Action in this Discussion" would be alot better then just to ignore this amount of Text Users have put into.
Very very bad Communication imho.

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This might be the only good Idea for you, but there are other People with other Opinions.

All of which are completely bias to it being changed in the first place.

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That makes no sense, even if it is different it can be treated the same.
When you say "should be" it is again your Opinion, but as mentioned above other People have other Opinions.

My Friendlist is Oflline because of the Lab, not League Ending or something else.
Everbody said literally "F*** the Lab, bye".

So you want to lump it up as the same, despite it being very much different, again one is content, the other is not. Clearly large differences there.


Yeah ok and mine is too, o wait its not everyone is offline because the league is pretty dead. But it lasted longer then most leagues for people.

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You highly doubt that 50 % of my lriends left because of Lab?
I know that it is true.
On the other Side I highly doubt that only a Minority hates the Lab, why ? Because nearly everybody left of my Friends because of it.

I have run the Lab over 60 times and I will still complain as long as I am playing.

Yet, here we are discussing this "issue" when every single indication of the true numbers point towards the minority hating and and even less people quitting because of it then that number.

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Again, calling People "whinny Babies" will most likely have the effect that smart People won´t take you serious anymore.
The Fact that GGG isn´t responding to a 320 Pages Thread is not so much an Indicator that something will or will not be changed but for me it is an Indicator of very bad Customer Interaction.
Even a short " Hey Guys, we noticed that something is going here, but we can´t take Action in this Discussion" would be alot better then just to ignore this amount of Text Users have put into.
Very very bad Communication imho.

Thats what people that complain about the lab are. They pose no such argument as to why they don't like it except bullshit scenarios that aren't true. Like "doesn't fit" it does fit, traps have been in ARPG games for years. Like its a ground damage effect, which has been in poe for years. The only "difference" is you actually need to avoid this or it does a lot of damage. Imagine that something you actually have to avoid.


GGG does not respond to threads like this one. They gain NOTHING by doing so. They have responded on numerous podcast that discussed the lab, they have addressed it in a q\a question as well I believe too. So your refusal to accept the information GGG has already posted ABOUT THIS EXACT TOPIC, is the INABILITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS THREAD HAS ALREADY BEEN ADDRESSED.


I agree, why doesn't GGG just have support plaster, sorry you dislike the lab, there are no plans currently to change the lab, instead we are arguing over the idea that GGG "might" change the lab because despite them saying otherwise they have changed their minds in the past. Get real, the answer has been stated many times already before. At this point I would be satisfied with a whole separate lab QQ forum dedicated purely to those that wish to circle jerk about how terrible the lab is and how you can link a video of a hybrid build getting raped before the ES changes. Grats on doing your research, grats on that guy not knowing how to roll a flask. I wish you all the luck in the future, when the context points to lab is not getting changed, you are fighting as if there is still a chance, when GGG has shut down the idea essentially every step of the way.

I am pretty sure there is a video out there with a 14k hp character nearly instantly dying to traps in the lab (<half a second). I am sorry if you are not experienced enough in the lab to understand this. Although it's not that hard to believe as you can get hit by many traps at once and it's obvious that 14k hp should be the same as him having 5k hp. Everyone should die at the same amount of time in the same scenario. This is Mario afterall; not an arpg.

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So you want to lump it up as the same, despite it being very much different, again one is content, the other is not. Clearly large differences there.


Yeah ok and mine is too, o wait its not everyone is offline because the league is pretty dead. But it lasted longer then most leagues for people.

It doesn´t matter if it is different if the Solution is good for both Issues.

You just don´t want to believe me, eh ? They left because of the Lab. Because they said so!
Nohing more to say to that.

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Yet, here we are discussing this "issue" when every single indication of the true numbers point towards the minority hating and and even less people quitting because of it then that number.

What Indications are there?
I have run the Lab on every Char. I still HATE the Lab. Am I counted as a Lab Lover because I run it over 60 times ?
You see the Problem ? Just because People do the Lab does not mean they like it. They like Ascendancies or the Rewards.

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Thats what people that complain about the lab are. They pose no such argument as to why they don't like it except bullshit scenarios that aren't true. Like "doesn't fit" it does fit, traps have been in ARPG games for years. Like its a ground damage effect, which has been in poe for years. The only "difference" is you actually need to avoid this or it does a lot of damage. Imagine that something you actually have to avoid.

There a lots of good Arguments why People don´t like it and lots of good Alternatives.
Just Read Page 1 again and you´ll find many.
Yet there are only two Arguments I´ve read that are against putting the AC-Points somewhere else.

1 ) I can´t profit from Lab carries anymore.

2 ) The Content will be watered down.

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GGG does not respond to threads like this one. They gain NOTHING by doing so. They have responded on numerous podcast that discussed the lab, they have addressed it in a q\a question as well I believe too. So your refusal to accept the information GGG has already posted ABOUT THIS EXACT TOPIC, is the INABILITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS THREAD HAS ALREADY BEEN ADDRESSED.

They gain nothing of it by doing so ?
For me they lose alot by not doing it.
They lose their good Communication Reputation they earned at the Start of the Game.
This is a 320 Pages Thread in their OWN Forums.
I don´t want to read something on Reddit or hear something on PODCASTs or whatnot, this is the official Forums Adress ffs, if this whole Forum has no value to them, why don´t they just shut it down?

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I agree, why doesn't GGG just have support plaster, sorry you dislike the lab, there are no plans currently to change the lab, instead we are arguing over the idea that GGG "might" change the lab because despite them saying otherwise they have changed their minds in the past. Get real, the answer has been stated many times already before. At this point I would be satisfied with a whole separate lab QQ forum dedicated purely to those that wish to circle jerk about how terrible the lab is and how you can link a video of a hybrid build getting raped before the ES changes. Grats on doing your research, grats on that guy not knowing how to roll a flask. I wish you all the luck in the future, when the context points to lab is not getting changed, you are fighting as if there is still a chance, when GGG has shut down the idea essentially every step of the way.

You won´t get anything changed if you don´t adress it.
If you surrender that quickly to something that hasn´t changed that you dislike then you will most likely not get anything changed at all.
As mentioned before. As long as I play I will keep posting in this Thread to keep it alive.