SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Agreed. Lab itself is fucking too big. Traps and no fun. The only fun is lab is the Izarios fight and to get the acd points.

My suggestion is to shorten the length of lab cut off all puzzle crap, make trials less puzzle and more straight line, increase odds to uber lab trials appear in maps (thats just... wtf, seems like you guys don't want that we get those last 2 acd points), make a list of enchants to choose. It's really bad to run 13278964 times to get the enchant you want, and guess what, change your item and boooom, be ready to re run all over again.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

I was going to say the lab sucks for most of the reasons already listed. However I didn't feel like reading all 300+ pages.
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LuizPc wrote:

Agreed. Lab itself is fucking too big. Traps and no fun. The only fun is lab is the Izarios fight and to get the acd points.
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The points you make are good ones and many people (including me) agree with you. (I really do love the Izaro fight, I just hate getting there.) The OP of this thread has an excellent summary and many suggested solutions.

Thank you both for sharing your opinion. We're now up to Over 270 threads discussing labyrinth problems with 629 posters in support. Anyone else that has an opinion on labyrinth but never posted, make a post and I'll add your account name to the list in the linked thread. The purpose is to make sure that GGG appreciates that this is an important issue that should best be addressed.

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almostdead wrote:

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

The lab itself is just to damned long.

How long, going full speed, should it take for it to not be "too damned long" for you?

Your right. I have to now tell you how long is to long. Because me simply stating that isn't good enough.

I have 4 kids. Lab is so long that I can't even take the time to attempt it on the week day. It's not like a map I can throw on, and be done in minutes. This limits me to only even attempting it on the weekends. And when I fail do to something stupid like not standing far enough up the stairs on the stupid lava trap. I have to start all the fucking way over cuz I looked away from my screen for a min. It's simply just way to dam long. I lose interest after the first boss fight. But I still have to push further just to get some NEEDED points. For my build theories. I really hate the whole thing overall.

I like to make builds that's fun for me. Having to do lab to make builds... well it makes them not so fun anymore.

So whats the length of the lab like for you? I assume you like it as you can't take me simply saying its too long and leave it at that.

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Shredzilly wrote:

The Game gets easier and easier since it went live, but Deadends make it not harder, just more boring.
I see no Argument from your Side here or do you think cause you run around with no Monsters to kill makes the Game harder ?

And Yes, Deadends are my Nemesis, because I think it is lazy Design.
I like to compare it with an Amusement Park.
The best Park is where you enjoy every Ride.
If you can´t accomplish that as a Designer you will automatically implement Stuff that is mediocre.

Absolutely, knowing where to go and going through a zone efficiently is part of a player's skillset and will matter in clearspeed optimization.

Plus having a very linear tileset can also be boring, I would be bored I think if we had only fucking linear tilsets everywhere, god no ....

Your enjoyement is not everybody enjoyment, and if you cannot understand that with 0 frustration in a game there is no worth feeling of achievment / satisfaction, you will automatically implement stuff that is mediocre.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

Also the scion acd seems like crap. It's a cool idea, but really poorly executed. You have to complete the labs on 3 different modes before you can even take advantage of it. After I beat norm mode I realized I had 17 unspent passive points. I was like Well crap Maybe I should path there and respect them later. Guess I'll have to buy a million regrets. So I can level a scion build I theory crafted. To be honest I don't even want to try anymore.

It starts really from cruel lab, not merc.
Why respec them later ? Oo
If you do not know where to go, you probably will reach a point where you will just reroll ( or wait for the free respec that should come with the end of the leagues ).
There is so much game knowledge to acquire before doing one's own well working build, you should probably look at some guides before throwing yourself in it if you do not want to reroll soon hoonestly.


By the way, I don't really believe that you are playing PoE but cannot dedicate ~30 min of your life doing it, and you can sit idle before Izaro ( the room before obviously ), or after you cleared ( not 100% safety but it's ok if you don't go away for an hour usually ... ).

Anf if you over level it by like a lot ( before you do not have the knowledge and character to do it before ), that should be really fine for norm / cruel, and later on even for Merc.

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

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almostdead wrote:

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TheLockedGuy wrote:

The lab itself is just to damned long.

How long, going full speed, should it take for it to not be "too damned long" for you?

Your right. I have to now tell you how long is to long. Because me simply stating that isn't good enough.

I have 4 kids. Lab is so long that I can't even take the time to attempt it on the week day. It's not like a map I can throw on, and be done in minutes. This limits me to only even attempting it on the weekends. And when I fail do to something stupid like not standing far enough up the stairs on the stupid lava trap. I have to start all the fucking way over cuz I looked away from my screen for a min. It's simply just way to dam long. I lose interest after the first boss fight. But I still have to push further just to get some NEEDED points. For my build theories. I really hate the whole thing overall.

I like to make builds that's fun for me. Having to do lab to make builds... well it makes them not so fun anymore.

So whats the length of the lab like for you? I assume you like it as you can't take me simply saying its too long and leave it at that.

This is one of the major complaints about labyrinth. The most common suggested solution, besides making the ascendancy points available elsewhere, is for each Izaro to have a save point. That would essentially break the large time sink into three pieces. Chris Wilson, prior to release, said that it was expected that a complete run through the Labyrinth was expected to take 45 minutes to an hour. The common comeback from pro-labyrinth folks is that total labyrinth should take less than 5 or 10 minutes. This estimate is not compatible with the labyrinth ladders for normal, which typically have a median time around 30 minutes. The 5 to 10 minutes is a reasonable time for a fastest run for an expert labyrinth runner that knows the particular daily layout that is being run and has run it multiple times but not applicable for the situation we're discussing here.

I still think the best solution that pleases everyone is simply changing trap damage to flat, or reducing trap quantity in general, or both.

Less traps with less damage total in a short period of time should make progressing through lab significantly faster for those not built specifically for lab, and even faster for those who are.

It is the most simple solution that can be implemented in a day as a compromise for all parties involved.

I absolutely reject the idea of Ascendency Points being changed elsewhere. Do note that all balance changes are intended for Act 5 gameplay. With act 5 comes the removal of a difficulty (probably cruel) and as such earlier suggestions are already planned to be implemented albeit in a different manner. With 2 difficulties that means first 2 labs give 3 points and uber lab gives last 2. This means 1 less lab run as well making it less tedious for those who simply dislike it.

A combination of the changes above should be sufficient enough to please 90% or more of the community. People who already enjoy lab will only enjoy it more with the above changes. Those who dislike lab will dislike it less with the above changes. You cant make all content enjoyable for every one. That results in a flawed design because what we want is not always best for the game.

I want people to enjoy lab. Not at the expense of the system already in place. The system is perfect as is. Some minor tweeks to traps will improve the experience for everyone but in my opinion is not neccessary and falls under the "quality of life" improvement category.

If you guys have suggestions unrelated to portals and moving of AC points that is what we want to hear. Lab can not work as intended with any methods of leaving the lab in place, including anything log out related, as this allows log out macros to be used.

In short we want lab to be free of cheese mechanics, and help is a requirement if one is unable to do it themselves. This encourages cooperation, even if it is paid for. Being unable to use vaal skills more than once or twice is a key mechanic to ensuring Izaro stays strong and difficult without near BIS gear. Even as a ranged character BIS gear will not save you as Izaro powered up can still 1 shot you. This brings mechanical fights to a new level that makes Malachai and Dominus a joke. The only superior fight being Shaper despite the possibility of useing cheese mechanics in shaper fight.

This is a hot topic issue because it is different. People dislike change. Change is always met with some form of negativity as people dislike adapting to new mechanics or changes in pre existing gameplay. This is why GGG already knew ahead of time some people would dislike Lab. The fact is however that the amount of people theorized to dislike lab is out of proportion. Any game company is aware when a large portion of their playerbase dislikes something and they make it aware.

We have seen this in many games in history. Destiny with its outrageous layering of RNG on top of RNG, Wildstar with its boring repetitive content and mods with a buy to play model changed to free to play to save the game from extinction. Then theres the Division with a complete remake of everything in the game from the ground up with its newest update. Theres Diablo 3 with the removal of AH, increased Legendary drop rates, constant changes to existing Legendary items as well as new ones, and constant changes to class set rewards.

When there is a major issue with a change the company will make it known. People wonder why there is no development manifesto or topic of discussion by GGG on the Lab. The simplest reason is that Lab does not need fixing. It is not broken, and is not an issue that needs solving. Its just an aspect of the game a minority dislikes as expected by GGG before they even released it.

You may never enjoy lab, maybe you will. Regardless eventually you will accept it for what it is, or simply quit. There are far larger issues in this game that need fixing or improvements that people have complained about for literally years. I mean look at how accepting people have become of the attrocious trade system. Now when ever people try to make suggestions on improving it theres a community who will fight back and say it is fine as is when clearly it isn't. They have been denied these improvements for so long that they have become delusional and accepted the fact that the trade we want in POE is never coming. The same will happen with the lab haters. We just need to give it time. The new generation wont even know the difference. Its the problem with being a veteran.

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Jgizle wrote:

I still think the best solution that pleases everyone is simply changing trap damage to flat, or reducing trap quantity in general, or both.

Less traps with less damage total in a short period of time should make progressing through lab significantly faster for those not built specifically for lab, and even faster for those who are.
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Trap difficulty is not the main problem. The main problem for many (most?) is that trap game play is boring, tedious, irritating, and not fun.

Boring mechanics is not a problem. Entire games exist on the concept of boring mechanics. Pick any mobile game ever that is popular.

Pokemon Go for example is the epitomy of what it means to play a boring game. Yet millions upon millions of people play it and spend money on it despite it being boring. Its a game that is nothing like a real pokemon game, and is really just a waste of time. The combat is trash tap tap tap to attack. The goal is to catch the same pokemon hundreds of times to get candy and make them stronger, despite the fact that using those candy in general is also a waste of time as 1 level higher you can catch a pokemon just as strong for free without using those candy.

Boring mechanics are not bad. Boring mechanics dont need fixing. If you think something is boring dont play it just like i dont play pokemon go any more you can refuse to not play lab. Not like AC points are mandatory or anything. We played POE for years without AC and nothing has changed to make the AC points actually mandatory.

If you want to say they are mandatory wait till Act 5 gets released since that act is specifically balanced for AC, then your point will have validity. Right now AC is not balanced. AC makes you over powered. The power creep is real.

You say lab is boring I say maps are boring. They both are the same repetitive gameplay over and over. Maps change mods which dont do anything for most meta builds until red maps, and lab changes layout and key locations. In the end though they are both boring. The fun part is the rewards. That which lab has in superior quantity and quality.

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Jgizle wrote:

Boring mechanics is not a problem. Entire games exist on the concept of boring mechanics. Pick any mobile game ever that is popular.

Pokemon Go for example is the epitomy of what it means to play a boring game. Yet millions upon millions of people play it and spend money on it despite it being boring. Its a game that is nothing like a real pokemon game, and is really just a waste of time. The combat is trash tap tap tap to attack. The goal is to catch the same pokemon hundreds of times to get candy and make them stronger, despite the fact that using those candy in general is also a waste of time as 1 level higher you can catch a pokemon just as strong for free without using those candy.

Boring mechanics are not bad. Boring mechanics dont need fixing. If you think something is boring dont play it just like i dont play pokemon go any more you can refuse to not play lab. Not like AC points are mandatory or anything. We played POE for years without AC and nothing has changed to make the AC points actually mandatory.

If you want to say they are mandatory wait till Act 5 gets released since that act is specifically balanced for AC, then your point will have validity. Right now AC is not balanced. AC makes you over powered. The power creep is real.

You say lab is boring I say maps are boring. They both are the same repetitive gameplay over and over. Maps change mods which dont do anything for most meta builds until red maps, and lab changes layout and key locations. In the end though they are both boring. The fun part is the rewards. That which lab has in superior quantity and quality.

Bah, the goddamn game get's boring, but to make in these days traps more dangerous than most enemies which can be killed, place them in long intricate layouts with low visibility, and then release a new "better" version that keeps disconnecting and make you lose time and "currency" - those Offerings aren't always easy to find and to procure, and in the end just bribe the players with "rewards" in "superior quantity and quality" and say that you improved the game is ASININE - you made it different, for sure, but not necessarily improved it.

To deliver cheesing content with leader boards for the fastest player in an area called a "Labyrinth", that has only a line as effective path, and not the traditional maze is another sad success of the designers, as the content should you know be actually harder and give a challenge...

Labyrinth is the content with the most wasted potential of the game unfortunately, it could have been awesome, but it just leaves a bitter taste and succeeded in dividing the community as no other content did...