SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Jgizle wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, you can make such a list if you're that interested. While I made the list of threads, the list of posters in support was originally built by Zaludoz. A list of posters that thinks labyrinth has problems makes sense to me because many people have said that there is just a small handful of players that dislike labyrinth. The list disproves this assertion. A list of posters in support of labyrinth wouldn't even make sense to me for many reasons.

So you are under the assumption this thread proves otherwise? This thread simply proves how small this minority of lab haters are. Whether you want to believe it or not, more than 70k players play POE actively every day. Just that fact alone proves how small the community of lab haters are.

Total nonsense, I never said any such thing. Your silly assumption that 70k players all like labyrinth is completely ridiculous and without any basis. You make this same silly lie over and over.

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Jgizle wrote:

You can say, "oh my thread is representative of the entire community" but you would be wrong. People rarely go to the forums to complement things they like about POE. This pretty much means this thread is representative of most of the majority that dislikes it. I said this a long time ago and ill say it again. Unless this thread has 10k + different people saying they dislike lab, you will forever be a miniscule minority that really the majority could care less about. Considering you have less than 10% of that we the people saying "lab haters are a minority" will always be an accurate statement until you prove otherwise. Until now you have yet to do so. Instead you reply to every one with the exact same thing and think you are making a good point when you are not.

Same stupid crap I've called you out on before. This is not my thread. IThere is nothing in there that makes any sense.

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Jgizle wrote:

The essence of your hate is "lab is boring". Unfortunately that is not a problem that requires fixing. It is simply a trope of all video games. Anything repetitive is boring. Maps are boring, lab is boring, leveling new characyers is boring, using the exact same pathing in passive tree is boring, using the exact same items and skills is boring. In essence POE is boring. You make POE fun in your own personal way, not the other way around.

Since you refuse to make new characters because of lab there is nothing left for you to do but level existing characters, farm currency, and blow regrets on existing characters to try new builds. Either that or simply quit and go to a game more like the playstyle you desire, Diablo 3.

GGG will eventually fix it and then I'll be proven right or they won't and you'll be proven rigght. Fixing a game so that it won't be boring game play for many people sounds like a wise thing for a game developer to do though. Stop telling me what to do you silly person.

Please for the love of god quote me anywhere where I said 70k Love lab. Do it right now. I said 70k people play POE every day. You are the one claiming I said that and then replying to a statement you made up yourself out of thin air.
If 70k+ people play POE (which is a fact) and less than 1k people have said they dislike lab, that means you are a minority. Simple as that. Take it for what it is. Do not read into it and try to change words around.

Keep dreaming because there is no issue to fix. You wont see GGG doing anything in OP ever.

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Jgizle wrote:

Please for the love of god quote me anywhere where I said 70k Love lab. Do it right now. I said 70k people play POE every day. You are the one claiming I said that and then replying to a statement you made up yourself out of thin air.
If 70k+ people play POE (which is a fact) and less than 1k people have said they dislike lab, that means you are a minority. Simple as that. Take it for what it is. Do not read into it and try to change words around.

Keep dreaming because there is no issue to fix. You wont see GGG doing anything in OP ever.

Sorry for trying to make some resemblance of logic out of your gobble gook. The sky is blue and water is wet, therefore GGG will never fix labyrinth.

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Jgizle wrote:

Please for the love of god quote me anywhere where I said 70k Love lab. Do it right now. I said 70k people play POE every day. You are the one claiming I said that and then replying to a statement you made up yourself out of thin air.
If 70k+ people play POE (which is a fact) and less than 1k people have said they dislike lab, that means you are a minority. Simple as that. Take it for what it is. Do not read into it and try to change words around.

Keep dreaming because there is no issue to fix. You wont see GGG doing anything in OP ever.

The only reason to say "70k people play each day and don't come on a message board saying they hate it" implies your attempt at making it mean the opposite; that those approximately 69k like the labyrinth, since they have not explicitely made the effort to tell people they don't like it.

By no stretch of the imagination would I ever agree that everyone who doesn't post their dislike of the labyrinth is a lab lover; at most, they are labyrinth tolerators or they are indifferent, or don't think posting their experience with it will influence any change, so why bother? That's as far as I'd take those numbers.

Anyway, that's my fed-up-with-same-old-same-old-arguements post for the day. The only posts that really matter on this feedback section are each person's individual experience with the game, their suggestions for change, and the responses from GGG.

(that's the extent that pertains to the quote above)







I've skipped this league (yeah, free mtx wasn't enough to draw me back), and I'm not feeling the desire to play any time soon anymore, despite all my theorycrafting that is blocked by this monstrosity of bad game design. I do frequent the message boards, but only to watch for positive change. So, telling me to quit if I don't like it... well, I basically already did, but as soon as there is acceptable change, that will change too.

I personally don't care about anybody else's experience with the labyrinth being opposite of mine, because my suggestions for change would not negatively impact anybody else, while making it enjoyable for me to play again.

Basically, those who tell people to withhold their feedback or stop making suggestions that would make the game more fun for them are wasting their time. Each person's experience with the game is an important bit of feedback for GGG. How GGG takes that feedback and acts on it is up to them, but EVEN 1 person who has found 1 thing that could be changed to improve the game experience is a minority that should be *listened* to.

The extent of reply from GGG going beyond the actual changes made to the game, as in actual post responses, increases the feeling of connection between players and developers of an online game, and makes them feel like their experience matters. No responses does the opposite, and distances themselves. This sort of issue feels like one they should be replying to in a more meaningful manner than we've seen thus far. (and other players of the game have taken it upon themselves to speak for GGG in a hilarious fashion, IMO. This does not benefit GGG)

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Zaludoz wrote:

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Jgizle wrote:

Please for the love of god quote me anywhere where I said 70k Love lab. Do it right now. I said 70k people play POE every day. You are the one claiming I said that and then replying to a statement you made up yourself out of thin air.
If 70k+ people play POE (which is a fact) and less than 1k people have said they dislike lab, that means you are a minority. Simple as that. Take it for what it is. Do not read into it and try to change words around.

Keep dreaming because there is no issue to fix. You wont see GGG doing anything in OP ever.

The only reason to say "70k people play each day and don't come on a message board saying they hate it" implies your attempt at making it mean the opposite; that those approximately 69k like the labyrinth, since they have not explicitely made the effort to tell people they don't like it.

By no stretch of the imagination would I ever agree that everyone who doesn't post their dislike of the labyrinth is a lab lover; at most, they are labyrinth tolerators or they are indifferent, or don't think posting their experience with it will influence any change, so why bother? That's as far as I'd take those numbers.

Anyway, that's my fed-up-with-same-old-same-old-arguements post for the day. The only posts that really matter on this feedback section are each person's individual experience with the game, their suggestions for change, and the responses from GGG.

(that's the extent that pertains to the quote above)







I've skipped this league (yeah, free mtx wasn't enough to draw me back), and I'm not feeling the desire to play any time soon anymore, despite all my theorycrafting that is blocked by this monstrosity of bad game design. I do frequent the message boards, but only to watch for positive change. So, telling me to quit if I don't like it... well, I basically already did, but as soon as there is acceptable change, that will change too.

I personally don't care about anybody else's experience with the labyrinth being opposite of mine, because my suggestions for change would not negatively impact anybody else, while making it enjoyable for me to play again.

Basically, those who tell people to withhold their feedback or stop making suggestions that would make the game more fun for them are wasting their time. Each person's experience with the game is an important bit of feedback for GGG. How GGG takes that feedback and acts on it is up to them, but EVEN 1 person who has found 1 thing that could be changed to improve the game experience is a minority that should be *listened* to.

The extent of reply from GGG going beyond the actual changes made to the game, as in actual post responses, increases the feeling of connection between players and developers of an online game, and makes them feel like their experience matters. No responses does the opposite, and distances themselves. This sort of issue feels like one they should be replying to in a more meaningful manner than we've seen thus far. (and other players of the game have taken it upon themselves to speak for GGG in a hilarious fashion, IMO. This does not benefit GGG)

Well put, the only thing I can add is that for those like Jgizle that enjoy playing labyrinth, That is great! I'm happy for you and GGG that you enjoy that content. I hope and expect that when/if GGG fixes this that it is done in such a way that it remains fun or even better, becomes even more fun for you. I really don't think you should fear progress and improvements to the game.

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Zaludoz wrote:

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Jgizle wrote:

Please for the love of god quote me anywhere where I said 70k Love lab. Do it right now. I said 70k people play POE every day. You are the one claiming I said that and then replying to a statement you made up yourself out of thin air.
If 70k+ people play POE (which is a fact) and less than 1k people have said they dislike lab, that means you are a minority. Simple as that. Take it for what it is. Do not read into it and try to change words around.

Keep dreaming because there is no issue to fix. You wont see GGG doing anything in OP ever.

The only reason to say "70k people play each day and don't come on a message board saying they hate it" implies your attempt at making it mean the opposite; that those approximately 69k like the labyrinth, since they have not explicitely made the effort to tell people they don't like it.

By no stretch of the imagination would I ever agree that everyone who doesn't post their dislike of the labyrinth is a lab lover; at most, they are labyrinth tolerators or they are indifferent, or don't think posting their experience with it will influence any change, so why bother? That's as far as I'd take those numbers.

Anyway, that's my fed-up-with-same-old-same-old-arguements post for the day. The only posts that really matter on this feedback section are each person's individual experience with the game, their suggestions for change, and the responses from GGG.

(that's the extent that pertains to the quote above)








I've skipped this league (yeah, free mtx wasn't enough to draw me back), and I'm not feeling the desire to play any time soon anymore, despite all my theorycrafting that is blocked by this monstrosity of bad game design. I do frequent the message boards, but only to watch for positive change. So, telling me to quit if I don't like it... well, I basically already did, but as soon as there is acceptable change, that will change too.

I personally don't care about anybody else's experience with the labyrinth being opposite of mine, because my suggestions for change would not negatively impact anybody else, while making it enjoyable for me to play again.

Basically, those who tell people to withhold their feedback or stop making suggestions that would make the game more fun for them are wasting their time. Each person's experience with the game is an important bit of feedback for GGG. How GGG takes that feedback and acts on it is up to them, but EVEN 1 person who has found 1 thing that could be changed to improve the game experience is a minority that should be *listened* to.

The extent of reply from GGG going beyond the actual changes made to the game, as in actual post responses, increases the feeling of connection between players and developers of an online game, and makes them feel like their experience matters. No responses does the opposite, and distances themselves. This sort of issue feels like one they should be replying to in a more meaningful manner than we've seen thus far. (and other players of the game have taken it upon themselves to speak for GGG in a hilarious fashion, IMO. This does not benefit GGG)

+ 5000

Did anyone suggest something about a vendor recipe for asc points? For example: Selling 5 offering to the godess + an orb of augmentation lets you get your ascendancy points for the difficulty you sell them at.

Something along that line could be reasonable and economy stimulating.

Lab lovers are not scared of change thats ridiculous. Lab lovers are the ones who have embraced the change. Further change is not the issue. the issue is the suggestions themselves which create more problems than the people suggesting them think. It is very easy to make selfish suggestions without seeing the big picture simply because you are frustrated or dislike something.

There are 4 rules when it comes to any discussion about change.

1. State the problem.
2. Provide solutions to said problem.
3. Think about the impact of said solutions
4. Re-evaluate the solutions presented

When people think about lab they only think about the game in its current state, and then they narrow their viewpoint to lab specifically ignoring all other aspects of the game. The suggesstions in OP prove this.

These are what we know.

1. AC is over powered, intentionally, by GGG. The game in its current state is not balanced for Ascendancy. Lab is not balanced for Ascendancy. Obviously because requiring AC to do lab would make it impossible. As such AC is power creep. It is power that can be obtained with little effort with no balance changes in the game to counter these huge improvements in builds. By definition AC is power creep.

2. Lab was implemented with the next update in mind, ie it was released early. With next update comes act 5. Likewise the removal of a difficulty is coming, meaning we would get 6 ac points before uber lab in only 2 runs. With the addition of the next act comes balance changes specifically for Ascendancy, meaning you will require AC in next update for progression.

The issue of power creep is removed in next update as AC will finally have content balanced for it. Likewise AC will be easier to obtain since the removal of a difficulty is coming. Now if we look at the suggestions OP wants AC removed from Lab, or alt forms of currency or ways to buy or receive AC points. In a setting where AC becomes mandatory it is only fair that players have to do something to obtain it, simply because AC is so strong. You cant buy passive points or trade anything for passive points so it is not fair that you could do so with AC points if you cant do it with passive points as well, since technically they are both passive points.

I can make a suggestion here though. In the game you can do quests to get books that give passive points. How about they add a quest for non uber lab. Upon completing the quest (which is kill Izaro in x difficulty) you can talk to an NPC and get a book that rewards 1 Ascendancy Point. With Act 5 addition and a difficulty being removed, this means you can get all 8 points without doing Uber Lab and leaves Uber Lab to those who want to keep making money, but doesnt force people to do something so difficult for something that will eventually become mandatory (If GGG balances next act correctly for AC as they said it would be)

So in short. I am saying lab is the way it is now because of the way the game is right now. we have 3 difficulties and maps so the points are divided between them all. AC is over powered with no content balanced for it so lab is difficult through excessive trap use and a boss that can scale to be even harder if you want an additional key.

The whole goddess thing is stupid, if you are farming trials yourself. I personally think Uber Lab should always be open once you complete all the map trials and receive the goddess 1 time. When you are carrying others who have it already though, not so much a problem. It will however become a problem if my above suggestion was implemented.

As for traps I am confident quantity will go down in next update. Getting the points had to be difficult now because really there is no balance for it. Right now you will be stronger than you ever will again. Traps are useless when you have such high physical mitigation. This is why Pathfinder and Juggernaut are typically at top of leaderboards. I mean Jug with 8 or more endurance charges is just god mode.

I am not going to go over all the suggestions in OP but if you think of their impact you realise they effect everyone in some way and is not beneficial to the game.

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Jgizle wrote:

Lab lovers are not scared of change thats ridiculous. Lab lovers are the ones who have embraced the change.

You may be correct, but available evidence suggests otherwise.

In the absence of evidence, a reasonable guess would suggest otherwise as well, given the primary appeal of the Lab.

Balance in this game, like many other games, is based on two things:

1. Power / profit (for skills and items / areas, respectively).
2. Popularity.

Too much of either, and things get nerfed. I think you can see where I am going with this.

Many people criticize GGG for being reactive instead of proactive while balancing. I would be even more specific, and criticize them for making adjustments to #1 as a solution to problems in #2, without fully understanding the nature of why a skill, item, or area is unpopular.

The Labyrinth is only one of a number of examples illustrating this unfortunate tendency. It just happens to be a lot more visible (and thus controversial) because of its attachment to the Ascendancy classes.