SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

If the rewards in maps equivalent in difficulty to the laby are the same, and people ignore the lab, it means that people are playing the lab for the rewards alone and not because it is quality, fun content. It was an indirect (but by no means subtle) jab at the Labyrinth's quality.

This is heavily flawed imho.
If maps were not giving xp, would people run them ? Would they become completely unfun all at once then ?

Fun is something that includes everything, rewards too.
Not everybody can find fun the same way everywhere too of course.

You are suggesting that maps are quality good fun? Thats not true at all.

They give different scenery, and dont have traps, and as such that is called fun... The map system has gone stale, and atlas of worlds has not fixed that.

Realistically the maps system and lab are unfun. You are not mapping or doing lab for fun, you are doing it for the rewards, and the rewards itself are what is fun. You are not mapping or doing lab just for fun... The entire point is to get better loot for more power.

Uber Lab is the best activity in the game, even if you want to map. Uber Lab allows you to skip all the way to red maps. It offers the best source for gaining power, which is appropriate because its also the main area for gaining your power. Its the centralized location for power creep.

Isn't that what you want? A location that is always profitable and is guaranteed to give you better gear if you can efficiently run it.

Since lab has traps its not fun? Since you get no portals its not fun? Since it takes longer than running a map its not fun?

If you are not playing to make your character stronger then why are you playing at all. Thats the point of arpg's and uber lab is handing you everything you want on a platter.

Is it boring because you require a character specifically for uber lab, or is it simply boring because you are forced to do it to get your last 2 points for ascendancy?

It is the only portion of the game that is always changing, daily and has a boss that can be tuned by the player for how difficult you want the fight to be, with better rewards the more difficult you make it. The more rewards the more fun it is to do. Whats more fun than seeing the floor littered with valuables that can all be sold.

Everywhere else is trash explosion, makes it feel like anwaste of time every time you do it. Lab is fun for me cause of the rewards. I make so much money from lab which enables me to play more builds, which is also fun.

Doing maps is not fun because its unrewarding and boring. You hardly ever get good drops and the monsters are uninteresting. The map mods ruin it by making it too difficult and not worth your time. Even if they weakened map mods to be easier and increased drop rates it still would not be as rewarding as lab. Even if they were equally as rewarding lab would still be more fun because its dynamicly changing. Maps dont change besides difficulty.

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Jgizle wrote:

Realistically the maps system and lab are unfun. You are not mapping or doing lab for fun, you are doing it for the rewards, and the rewards itself are what is fun. You are not mapping or doing lab just for fun... The entire point is to get better loot for more power.

Speak for yourself. I am not so cynical as to believe that PoE is one giant Skinner Box, and there are many people who play PoE and other video games for fun (and for no other reason other than fun). Your line of reasoning which suggests otherwise descends quickly into hilarity.

Also, I happen to enjoy playing map content. Nor am I in a minority, because if I were, this game would be long dead. Most PoE players are not so moronic as to keep playing the game after it becomes unfun. You have the rare addictive types (upon whom WoW and its ilk prey) who play this game as well, so I won't say everyone, but I'm pretty sure that... yeah... people play PoE for fun. Am I really trying to convince you that people play video games for fun? Now I feel retarded, so I'll stop.

That said...

When was the last time you saw a thread whose OP announced his/her intention to quit the game "because the gameplay in maps is tedious and unfun?" Because that's the most common criticism of the laby, even by experienced labyrinth running experts. It's also a common criticism in the aforementioned "I quit" threads.

Why do those same people enjoy maps but not the Labyrinth? Well, that's a separate question, but I'll give my own theory:

The fun provided by the Labyrinth is highly concentrated at the end of the run. If you equate "fun" with "ARPG growth," then this is especially true.

The fun provided by maps is spread throughout.

Therefore, many people find the Labyrinth fun to FINISH but not so much to play (yes, including people who run it regularly). And many people find maps fun to PLAY but not so much to finish. See the difference in dynamics?

GGG added more and bigger piñatas to the Labyrinth, and then was surprised that people didn't have a change of heart. (Chris Wilson, for example, told me that he expected people to like the Labyrinth better after the 2.3 patch. They didn't.) But I wasn't surprised, because bigger piñatas does nothing about the above dynamic.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

(Chris Wilson, for example, told me that he expected people to like the Labyrinth better after the 2.3 patch. They didn't.) But I wasn't surprised, because bigger piñatas does nothing about the above dynamic.

Just about this :
The people QQing the most about the lab on those forum would definitely not change their opinion about it, no wonder.
Now do we have an actualy way of measuring how people "liked" the lab pre and post 2.3.0 ?
No we don't, GGG have number so they have an advantage over us about this.

It most likely didn't please all the people that were not liking the lab before, now some other might definitely be liking it thanks to those changes.

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Fruz wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

(Chris Wilson, for example, told me that he expected people to like the Labyrinth better after the 2.3 patch. They didn't.) But I wasn't surprised, because bigger piñatas does nothing about the above dynamic.

Just about this :
The people QQing the most about the lab on those forum would definitely not change their opinion about it, no wonder.
Now do we have an actualy way of measuring how people "liked" the lab pre and post 2.3.0 ?
No we don't, GGG have number so they have an advantage over us about this.

It most likely didn't please all the people that were not liking the lab before, now some other might definitely be liking it thanks to those changes.

I haven't read a post by, or talked to, a single person who disliked the lab before but likes it now that the piñatas make a bigger boom. Have you?

I'm not talking about the mass of lab hate that's spread throughout Feedback, either, or some universal change of heart. No, just a single post by a person that said "I didn't like the Lab because of xyz, but now as of 2.3 it's been fixed and I like it."

Nor am I surprised, for the reasons I outlined above.

Nor should you or anyone else be surprised.

These forums are filled with trolls, but they are also filled with reasonable and thoughtful people. It's not hard to spot hundreds of examples of both. If one of the latter category had had the above experience, s/he would have posted about it, and others would have agreed and likely posted as well.

Of course the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but in this case the absence of any kind of positive critical feedback to the 2.3 changes speaks volumes. And not to put too fine a point on it, the biggest fans of the changes are people who were running the Laby before the patch (whether for profit or for fun, and no, they are not the exact same thing).

My guess is that people that spend their time complaining here or in game will not change their mind with tjust this, and are the vocal minority that GGG ( or everyone actually ) is speaking about.

The others that do not really like it but just deal with it as it's a game element and they don't need to do it more than once per char + difficulty if they want ( uber not needed ), however are much more likely to enjoy if they feel rewarded for going through it I feel.
And those people would not just complain ( because what's the point to them ? there is little to none )

Of course that's just a guess.

And now, I am skipping most of the lab threads now so I have not noticed changes of heart amongst the forum complainers, neither am I expecting any.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

When was the last time you saw a thread whose OP announced his/her intention to quit the game "because the gameplay in maps is tedious and unfun?"

There's several right now, dealing with frustrating map drops and RNG content access. Map RNG was one of the most debated issue of this game since ever and many quit because of it. Not looting maps is tedious and unfun.

It's just that those dissatisfied with map drops, currency sink endgame and RNG access, didn't form an annoying cult yet... :P

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Fruz wrote:

And now, I am skipping most of the lab threads now so I have not noticed changes of heart amongst the forum complainers, neither am I expecting any.

I am. But only if there are substantive changes to the Labyrinth's reward dynamic. Otherwise I expect no change whatsoever. I really think that that's at the heart of people's dislike (both breadth and depth), even moreso than the traps.

Either key people at GGG have overlooked this or (more likely) they realize that there is no quick fix for the problem as I describe it. Therefore it needs to go in a much later patch, or the importance of the Labyrinth needs to be de-emphasized. I wish for the former, but I expect the latter.

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morbo wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

When was the last time you saw a thread whose OP announced his/her intention to quit the game "because the gameplay in maps is tedious and unfun?"

There's several right now, dealing with frustrating map drops and RNG content access. Map RNG was one of the most debated issue of this game since ever and many quit because of it. Not looting maps is tedious and unfun.

It's just that those dissatisfied with map drops, currency sink endgame and RNG access, didn't form an annoying cult yet... :P

Maybe they should, if that aspect is killing the game.

But anyway you are talking about something different. Frustration with map drops is not remotely in the same category as frustration with map gameplay per se being unfun.

I definitely agree with you that there is no quick way to make everybody happy ( including GGG of course ), or at least significantly reduce the number of people complaining about the lab.

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Fruz wrote:

... ( including GGG of course )...

Also extremely important. I understand all too well the challenges involved in maintaining the morale of a team of employees.