SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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AceNightfire wrote:

Lol, you make it look like the lab-haters are the only ones at fault that threads are derailing. I've seen plenty of pro-lab players who offended others and made illogical statements.

Oh neither side is completely black or white of course, but I did noticed more of those kind of post than actual "discussion" during the last pages, I mean this thread does not seem to be going anywhere anymore ( which is somewhat understandable considering the number of pages ).

So I basically wanted to reflect that, as I was reacting to "We can still discuss with other ppl".


I probably have gotten carried away couple of times on this thread ( it's deep in there and I'm not going to dig for it tho lol ).

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Fruz wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

Lol, you make it look like the lab-haters are the only ones at fault that threads are derailing. I've seen plenty of pro-lab players who offended others and made illogical statements.

Oh neither side is completely black or white of course, but I did noticed more of those kind of post than actual "discussion" during the last pages, I mean this thread does not seem to be going anywhere anymore ( which is somewhat understandable considering the number of pages ).

So I basically wanted to reflect that, as I was reacting to "We can still discuss with other ppl".


I probably have gotten carried away couple of times on this thread ( it's deep in there and I'm not going to dig for it tho lol ).

Its hard to go any where with out a discussion with the devs. The trolls really are not making a good case as to why the game is better with the LAB, except as a way to inflate the economy with carry services and really easy cheap "stuff" due to cheap easy builds which can sleep thru the LAB.

Until they actually respond nothing changes and the thread is just the trolls vs the unplaying.

Honestly both are not healthy for the game. At least if you post one group goes away.

Funny... Here's a statement from the new update about the Atlas of the World System:

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"This amount of structure is a pretty huge change to the formless system the maps took on before Atlas of Worlds, but Grinding Gear told me it wanted to make sure that players could ignore the Atlas entirely if they didn t like it, not wanting to alienate current players. If you just want to play like you were before, you ll still be completing maps, finding more that drop, and generally seeing them getting more difficult you just won t know the method behind it all unless you consult the Atlas. So while it adds some welcome structure, it doesn t impose itself upon you."

But forcing lab uppon the players seems ok to them, haha...

PS: No change to Lab in this update, obviously.

Sadpanda they released 2.4 info and not a word on lab.

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AceNightfire wrote:

Funny... Here's a statement from the new update about the Atlas of the World System:

"

"This amount of structure is a pretty huge change to the formless system the maps took on before Atlas of Worlds, but Grinding Gear told me it wanted to make sure that players could ignore the Atlas entirely if they didn t like it, not wanting to alienate current players. If you just want to play like you were before, you ll still be completing maps, finding more that drop, and generally seeing them getting more difficult you just won t know the method behind it all unless you consult the Atlas. So while it adds some welcome structure, it doesn t impose itself upon you."

But forcing lab uppon the players seems ok to them, haha...

PS: No change to Lab in this update, obviously.

Maybe they are learning from the lab and this time, are more careful.
Also there is no major reward like Ascendancy points this time, so less need for a "trial" kinda of content.
This is just an assumption of course, we don't know exactly how it is going to be.

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Fruz wrote:

Maybe they are learning from the lab and this time, are more careful.
Also there is no major reward like Ascendancy points this time, so less need for a "trial" kinda of content.
This is just an assumption of course, we don't know exactly how it is going to be.

Dont you think it makes even less sense to put a major reward for character progression behind experimental content like the lab? I mean, the Atlas update at least goes in line with the classic poe gameplay and GGG doesn't dare to force it upon the player.

But yeah, hopefully they have learned from the lab and will do something about that in the near future.

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AceNightfire wrote:

Dont you think it makes even less sense to put a major reward for character progression behind experimental content like the lab? I mean, the Atlas update at least goes in line with the classic poe gameplay and GGG doesn't dare to force it upon the player.

But yeah, hopefully they have learned from the lab and will do something about that in the near future.

If lab is experimental, then everything in the game is experimental.

Timing based patterns have been in the game since the beginning, the lab pushes it much further basically.
The lab is part of the "poe gameplay" as you say, it is just less forgivable than most other content (PoE used to be much more unforgivable too, in this way it fits more to the original PoE ).

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Fruz wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

Dont you think it makes even less sense to put a major reward for character progression behind experimental content like the lab? I mean, the Atlas update at least goes in line with the classic poe gameplay and GGG doesn't dare to force it upon the player.

But yeah, hopefully they have learned from the lab and will do something about that in the near future.

If lab is experimental, then everything in the game is experimental.

Timing based patterns have been in the game since the beginning, the lab pushes it much further basically.
The lab is part of the "poe gameplay" as you say, it is just less forgivable than most other content (PoE used to be much more unforgivable too, in this way it fits more to the original PoE ).

I think you are wrong about this one. Timing based patterns in classic poe gameplay may be right, but you have endless ways to face those patterns: evasion, dodge, armor, ES, block, spell block, life, life reg, life steal, life on hit, Mind of Matter, elemental resistances, dozens of defensive flasks, kill enemy before he takes action, auras, curse, curse auras, totems, golems, immortal call, mobility skills and probably even more then I have listed here. The traps on the other side ignore mostly anything I have listed here (except mobility and life reg). This means, the lab is more like a plattformer. In plattformer games, you dont have stats. Only your skill with movement and your prediction are important. In Jump'n runs you walk and jump to dodge enemies and traps to get through the level. You dont have builds that make certain parts easier. Either you can do it or you can't. And unless you play a Juggernaut, most builds die quite fast against traps, no matter how good your stats are, because traps ignore them. Some people dont enjoy this. And for some it's just boring. The patterns when playing against bosses are easier to predict, since their skills are rarely off-screen and are mostly directed only at you. So if a boss casts a flameburst below you, get out of the circle and you managed. But int he lab, there are patterns of traps without safe-spaces and that go far beyong off-screen. So you can't even learnt he layout entirely before you start walking. If you enjoy this, I envy you, but I dont. It's not like I dont like plattformers. I just dont want it in PoE.

I don't think that traps ignore immortal call.

There are not really "platforms" here, and you have
- potions ( life, mana and basalt, they all can matter )
- your ES recharge matters, as well as the recovery rate
- your move speed matters and life regeneration too of course, but it's not significant unless you stack it like crazy
- your movement skills matter of course ( too much for some )
- your evasion, block and armor matters in some cases ( darts, floor spikes for armour apparently )
- with uber your dps matters
- with uber, in some cases your resistances matter
- if you are Berserker your warcry can matter
- if you are occultist one of your passive will matter a lot
- if you are pathfinder, your potions matter even more
- Some specific uniques matter
- some vaal skills can matter ( vaal discipline )

And most class die fast against traps ... on purpose, Juggernaut might need a change to die faster against traps imho, or it needs bug dps nerfs to compensate, idk.

I beg to differ about predicting patterns, traps have always the same exact pattern, and you do not need to care about other incoming sources of damage ( apart from the Iwzaro fight ) basically, the monsters around are just too weak.
And bosses might have simpler ( but less predictable because of many factors, including map mods later on ) patterns, but they also one shot you. Traps never ever one shot anybody.


I agree that sometimes, or often the visibility feels insufficient.


Imho, lab is not more experimental than the Malachai fight for example, where you walk on degen clouds and effects everywhere wih much less safe space, potential one shots, and effects to implose the graphic card.

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Fruz wrote:

I don't think that traps ignore immortal call.

There are not really "platforms" here, and you have
- potions ( life, mana and basalt, they all can matter )
- your ES recharge matters, as well as the recovery rate
- your move speed matters and life regeneration too of course, but it's not significant unless you stack it like crazy
- your movement skills matter of course ( too much for some )
- your evasion, block and armor matters in some cases ( darts, floor spikes for armour apparently )
- with uber your dps matters
- with uber, in some cases your resistances matter
- if you are Berserker your warcry can matter
- if you are occultist one of your passive will matter a lot
- if you are pathfinder, your potions matter even more
- Some specific uniques matter
- some vaal skills can matter ( vaal discipline )

Most of those stats won't help you against the most annoying type of traps:

- Sawblades
- Spinning Blades
- Blade Sentries

Darts are only dangerous in combination with the above traps, since the poison slows you down (not a problem for juggernaut though, cause he can't be slowed down below base speed). ES recharge needs to proc, so the reg will only help you if you are in a safe space or at least have enough time without getting damaged.

Like you said yourself: Most of these stats/classes only work in very specific situations (example: only against one or two types of traps). Life Reg and Movement speed are ultimativaly the only stats that always make a difference. All the other things get or get partially ignored.

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Fruz wrote:

I beg to differ about predicting patterns, traps have always the same exact pattern, and you do not need to care about other incoming sources of damage ( apart from the Iwzaro fight ) basically, the monsters around are just too weak.

That's not true. A trap itself may have the same pattern, but the combination of certain factors change everything:

- Multiple trap types in one layout (example: blade sentries + poison darts)
- Room layout (certain walls can't be passed with mobility skills and some rooms dont offer much safe spaces)
- Complexity of trap movement (Sometimes traps are close together and the movement pattern of all traps is harder to predict)
- Enemies in the trap layouts (example: skeletons that stop you from walking in a straight line)
- Sentinal Traps in ubber lab (slow, damage, no mobility skills etc.)

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Fruz wrote:

And bosses might have simpler ( but less predictable because of many factors, including map mods later on ) patterns, but they also one shot you. Traps never ever one shot anybody.

1. There are not many bosses that can one-shot you
2. You can avoid maps that have bosses that can one-shot you

So you have the choice and can avoid the dangerous content. Not possible with Lab/Izaro.


I agree that sometimes, or often the visibility feels insufficient.

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Fruz wrote:

Imho, lab is not more experimental than the Malachai fight for example, where you walk on degen clouds and effects everywhere wih much less safe space, potential one shots, and effects to implose the graphic card.

Degen Clouds are unproblematic, since the aoe is quite small and the field moves slowly. Also, it takes some time until a cloud kills you. If you build a little bit tanky, you can even outheal the cloud (ofc it reduces your potential life reg, making other damage sources more problematic, but still...). And the implose to the graphic card shouldn't be a problem anymore thanks to the performance increasement thanks to multi-core usage.