SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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goetzjam wrote:

I'm still sadden by the fact you won't explain how the lab limits playstyles or something, because if its the boss fight or something like that, the change I support wouldn't really affect the boss fight at all. Meaning the solution to the "trap" problem won't address your issue with niche playstyles. So idk when you respond like I'm the only one asking questions and the devs wouldn't want answers to both side makes me feel bad :(

The only example I can think of now is when I first tried to make a low-life summoner last league. Simply because I never played one before so I wanted to try it.

I know low life was hard for me on cruel because of low stun threshold and the damn poison darts. I was a summoner so my damn pets kept covering up traps so I couldn't even see them. So I would have to let some of them die before progressing. Even after letting them die, there were so many cramped areas that my stupid summons would get stuck on weird shit or clog up entire areas where I would just try and warp out instead of killing mobs. This lead my flasks to be emptier than I would like. Combine all of this with a one-shotting izaro green ball barrage...ugh. All of this snowballed into a horrible grueling crawl for me in cruel.

Now this is just one example and it could be a little bit of a L2P issue because I never really played a summoner...I ended up deleting the character cause it was annoying. However, as a player not having any experience with a low-life summoner, I really remembered how frustrating the new/casual player experience is. The lab magnifies many of those feelings.

Layers and layers of traps without being able to see the end to figure out the full pattern annoyed me. My summons covering up traps annoyed me and made it very difficult. Poison darts would shred my ass so fast it sucked. Izaro would one shot me while I was casting summons over and over again...then Izaro would one shot my summons lol. /sadtimes

In hindsight, there are a lot of things i might been able to change in my gearing that would have made it easier... BUT the question remains, how many players that don't have the experience that more hardcore players have would even think to do this? What about those players that don't even know poe.trade exists (yes they are still out there). How many players out there don't look up stuff on the wiki and study the lab before entering it? How many players don't know about poelab.com (wasn't even around back then)

Players often get to cruel and see that their tree won't work or there are survivability issues with natural progressive gameplay. The Labyrinth is a player shocker! It throws so much at you and can be very demoralizing for players that WERE enjoying the game up to that single point.

For the labyrinth and it's traps to be a little divisive is okay imo, but if it is in fact this brick wall of "fuck this game I'm not playing it anymore" then that IS a problem. For ALL players. The hardcore and casual alike because those two subgroups depend on each other to some extent.

We don't know if it is a minority or a majority yet, so arguing that has no value. I personally believe that the lab in it's current form is too divisive and does hurt player retention more than the devs seem to think. Some sort of adjustments to reduce the shock-value of the lab is necessary imo.

If the people in this thread are wrong...they won't change it. Something, however, makes me feel as if they will change it...I'm just curious as to how.

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goetzjam wrote:

Funny enough you say that because I'm not opposed to basically having 2 version of the lab, one is trap based, like the current lab, the other is more maze like, or gather various materials before advancing, the one not based around traps as a challenge, would still have traps in the boss room and perhaps thematically thru the lab, but the traps wouldn't be obsticles, just around there for thematic purposes.

So the lab not based on traps would still have traps thematically including with boss (which means as a theme) but these traps wouldnt actually trap you? WTF?! That is like saying you are going to make a building not based on concrete but with concrete everywhere u know just thematically that wont keep the building together. Hopes and dreams will hold the building together. I think this nonsense about sums up your value as a poster....

Traps as they exist in the Lab only exist in the Lab (and Trials, but same difference). It is not a core gameplay element, and it should not be. Removing them entirely is the only way for Lab to feel like the rest of the game from a gameplay standpoint. I know the devs were going for a "Rogue-like" theme here, but their audience never asked for that and clearly doesn't want it. There's a fine balance between making the game you want to make and making one your players want to play. Lab is a failure for not respecting that balance.

Even having traps in only the boss room would still be a failure, because it's stubbornly holding onto an element that doesn't belong.

Updated OP with more alternative ways to get ascendancy points, thanks to some pretty sweet suggestions from Prebornfetus.

We officially reached 11 unique alternative ways to ascend and 6 improvements to the labyrinth itself, for a total of 17 suggestions for almost every possible gripe someone could have with the whole ordeal of running the lab/ascending. Im sure there are still things we havent thought of that fit into the purpose of the thread and our fight.

Keep up the good job people, and try not to give much value to posts/people that dont deserve it. While they offer food its totally junk like the lab itself.


Also ill make the inquiry again for any GGG employee to see : Please any person from the development department, (or the design team behind the lab), shed some light with a manifesto post on the past/present/future of the labyrinth and the ascendancy points. Thank you in advance.

lab sucks

luckily i don't need to complete uber lab since i play scions only

go another 178 pages

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And the range is 4 minutes to 2 hours. So what does that tell us now? Do you think the majority is as good as the best 10 people in here? Because the others needed 20+ minutes and 16-24 needed 45+ minutes. So I guess Chris estimation is not so bad for an "avarage run". Just because SOME people manage it in 10 minutes doesn't mean that those guys stand for the avarage. So you are the only one who isn't logical here, because you take the best people from the ladder as proof that lab doesnt take 45 minutes, while there are indeed people on the ladder who need that long (which you completely ignore in your statements about ladder being proof).

You realize there are 4 zones in which you are completely safe in?

The 3 zones right before the boss, which has access to stash and the very last zone which has access to sash and the extras. People can literally afk in various parts of the lab and be safe, so to say it takes longer because some people have done just that is funny as shit.

Lets not also forget that some players won't seek out knowledge on how to complete the lab, so naturally they will take longer or some people want to explore everything. I wish it was rewarding to do so, but even the uber lab sometimes isn't worth going all over the place.

The lab doesn't take 45 min because people have proven it doesn't take 45 min. You honestly can't sit here and tell me that anyone in this thread should take 45 min to do the lab. If so record a run and show me it takes you that long, I know you won't because you can't make a legit attempt at doing so, without making yourself look like a fool or exploring every single square inch of the lab.

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That's why I made this thread:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1681139

But I guess that thread didn't have enough flame/rage to get enough attention.

About rewarding experience: Well, I prefer having no experience but a reward then having a boring experience with a reward. Getting my AC points after Malachai would speed up the character progression alot (and many people ask for progression speed anyway), since I dont have to struggle through the labyrinth (or pay for the rush). If I ever feel like it, I can still do the lab, but then I can at least avoid this boring/annoying content entirely if I dont want to do it. And then it would also make sense to finaly finish the story line completely (killing merc malachai). If the AC points are really the only reason why 99% of the player actually play the lab, then the lab is a failure in my opinion, since the lab itself should be a fun experience and not the reward at the end

Thats because this is the largest thread in number and views, honestly I rather people abandon this shithole of a thread and actually hop over to yours, as it is not only a good start of a solution but the one that is most likely to happen.

People get all butthurt about finishing the storyline, who really fucking cares its an ARPG game that has endgame content you have access to without completing the last boss in the last act. GGG is allowed to keep that content harder because not everyone has to do it.

People that say the statement that the lab is a failure because the only reason why people do it is for the reward is just funny as shit to me. You mean you wouldn't do content if it didn't have a reward in an ARPG game.

LOL

It is a fun experience for those that know how to play it, for those that look past their own selfish view of what the game "should be". You aren't the designers of the game, stop acting like it and either enjoy the game or don't.

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But where is your proof that he meant initially? I also play League of Legends and the developer says that a round takes 45 minutes at avarage. Most of my games are finished after 30 minutes and then there are still some rounds that take 45 minutes or longer.

How long a lab run takes does not only depend on players skill, it also heavily depends on the layout (number of ways, doors, difficulty of trap sequences etc.). So while there are people who can do it in 10 minutes, there are also times when they need longer. And now think about players who dont do labyrinth 5 hours a day (like those who offer rushes or have characters designed for doing lab). Your ladder is a good example that some DO need the 45 minutes or even longer then that.

Get GGG to post that those 45 min ones are not people that just afk in a zone and I'll accept some people are really slow.

I think anyone that views themselves as capable of playing this game through to the endgame maps should be able to do the labs in a reasonable amount of time.

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But I need the AC points? Lol... How hard is that to understand, that PoE is all about character progression and that AC classes are as important as good equipment? AC classes are build defining, you can't just ignore it...

You said you like to explore the content and all of that, take your time or what have you, if you know that the lab needs to be done in 1 run without dropping connection you don't do these things. I don't think that even if they had a less trap like lab that it wouldn't need to be completed all at once either.

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2c for norm lab, 3c for cruel lab, 4c for merc lab and 6c for uber lab. Sometimes people offer the run cheaper, but you may have to wait to get those prices. And while 15c is cheap for you, it isnt for others. Like I said: You are not the avarage and you shouldn't think that you speak for the avarage.

The 6c for uber lab is the same price you would have to do if you did it yourself, given that the offering goes for that much really on its own. People will do rushes just for the "free piece" essentially, so it cost you nothing to do.

So 9c, which isn't that much. You can't tell me that players can't comeup with that, even the smaller currency you find when leveling will provide more then enough for the lab runs and enough to have you buy a few pieces of cheap gear.

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Prebornfetus wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Funny enough you say that because I'm not opposed to basically having 2 version of the lab, one is trap based, like the current lab, the other is more maze like, or gather various materials before advancing, the one not based around traps as a challenge, would still have traps in the boss room and perhaps thematically thru the lab, but the traps wouldn't be obsticles, just around there for thematic purposes.

So the lab not based on traps would still have traps thematically including with boss (which means as a theme) but these traps wouldnt actually trap you? WTF?! That is like saying you are going to make a building not based on concrete but with concrete everywhere u know just thematically that wont keep the building together. Hopes and dreams will hold the building together. I think this nonsense about sums up your value as a poster....

The traps in the main part of the lab would be non functional or in places that were not required to progress. Because it fits the theme of the lab for them to be in there, especially in the last room, unless that was changed as well.

I think it goes to show your ignorance and lack of reading\situation comprehension that you can't understand a really simple suggestion.

Grats

The fact that people are paying for runs instead of doing it themselves should be indicative of its failure, but no... let's argue over irrelevant bullshit instead.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Traps as they exist in the Lab only exist in the Lab (and Trials, but same difference). It is not a core gameplay element, and it should not be. Removing them entirely is the only way for Lab to feel like the rest of the game from a gameplay standpoint. I know the devs were going for a "Rogue-like" theme here, but their audience never asked for that and clearly doesn't want it. There's a fine balance between making the game you want to make and making one your players want to play. Lab is a failure for not respecting that balance.

Even having traps in only the boss room would still be a failure, because it's stubbornly holding onto an element that doesn't belong.

The meat tenderizers are in the Plaza map boss room as well, of course you don't know that.

A few whinny people don't want the rougelike experience and will stop at nothing to bump the topic, that doesn't mean a large or significant portion of players don't or aren't ok with it.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

The fact that people are paying for runs instead of doing it themselves should be indicative of its failure, but no... let's argue over irrelevant bullshit instead.

Paying for runs because the boss fights are hard, people pay for boss fights already in PoE. So by making that statement you think all boss fights should be easy as hell, but they aren't.

Paying for "rushes" in the lab does nothing to help you against the "trap" gameplay. So nice ignorant comment here by you.