SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Albinosaurus wrote:

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I'm still sadden by the fact you won't explain how the lab limits playstyles or something...

The fact that this needs to be explained says it all, mate.

He said for niche builds, every single build I've done and all my guild mates have done are able to do the lab. It has not limited a single one of my build.

The fact of the matter is if you say it limits builds, but dont say why as if we are suppose to automatically know what you are playing is just stupid as fuck.

I'd appreciate it if you would actually contribute anything to the conversation other then useless 1 line comments that serve no purpose.

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goetzjam wrote:

As I said before I support changes to the lab that actually keep AC points in it. Make you do a choice at the start to navigate more thru traps or more thru a maze like instances that will take you longer then navigating thru the labs. Perhaps require you to get various pieces from the side areas that would have otherwise been skipped by people that actually put themselves thru the challenge and the dangerous aspects of the lab.

That's what you said and it's wrong. I've posted proof. So apologise. Do it.

I'm only matching the intellectual content of your arguments. If you want a more serious discussion, then stop insulting people's intelligence and step up your game. Make arguments that stand on their own merits instead of just trying to tear down everyone else's. Your anecdotal evidence is not more valid than theirs, but you try to treat it as if it is. Why don't you start there?

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Pyrokar wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

As I said before I support changes to the lab that actually keep AC points in it. Make you do a choice at the start to navigate more thru traps or more thru a maze like instances that will take you longer then navigating thru the labs. Perhaps require you to get various pieces from the side areas that would have otherwise been skipped by people that actually put themselves thru the challenge and the dangerous aspects of the lab.

That's what you said and it's wrong. I've posted proof. So apologise. Do it.

You posted "proof" of something on page 111, I posted proof of what I said on page 132 supporting my claim. Even if what was said on page 111 you are interpreting as me saying no changes ever to the lab, my statements since are CLEAR that I do indeed support changes that keep AC in the lab.

You are knowingly posting incorrect information now.

The only way for Lab to keep ACs and not be shit is to remove traps. Anything else should move ACs out of the Lab.

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goetzjam wrote:

Or he can answer the question because he is the one that specifically made this statement, again this has nothing to do with you, so kindly mind your own fucking business.

@Turtledove

Its a fact that you started to complain about the lab without ever completing it, that is an indisputable fact. Proving my point that at least one player in this discussion refused to even complete the content before complaining about it. That just proves that people that "hate" the lab might not have actually even done the content before complaining about it. If I had to guess most of you guys haven't even done the uber lab yet either.

I don't have to do uber labyrinth to know that it is utter horrible tedium that is boring and not fun, just like I didn't have to do merciless labyrinth to know that it is tedious boring and not fun. After all the purpose of normal as well as the trials is to "train". It gives plenty of foreshadowing to know that it would be horrible, tedious, boring, and not fun. PLaying through the Merciless labyrinth and coming to the same conclusion proves that people that "hate" the lab might actually know their own minds better than you know their minds.

Now we can add "fucking business" to the list of your special expertise, "fucking power", "fucking lab", and "fucking discussions".

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goetzjam wrote:

END OF THE FUCKING DISCUSSION.

It's simply his favorite tactic, ad hominem. That's why he stalks people's character lists, achievements, challenges, etc. He's not interested in the argument. He never was.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

The only way for Lab to keep ACs and not be shit is to remove traps. Anything else should move ACs out of the Lab.

Funny enough you say that because I'm not opposed to basically having 2 version of the lab, one is trap based, like the current lab, the other is more maze like, or gather various materials before advancing, the one not based around traps as a challenge, would still have traps in the boss room and perhaps thematically thru the lab, but the traps wouldn't be obsticles, just around there for thematic purposes.


It is only logical that the traps remain in the last boss room, seeing as that is part of the challenge. This isn't to say that if you come up with a way to make the boss fight more challenging that it would still need to be necessary, but something would have to replace the traps in the last boss room and considering the interaction between the boss fight in the traps is important as well.

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He's not interested in the argument.

To the contrary, I'm more interested because I go out of my way to figure out why you come to those conclusions.

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goetzjam wrote:

You posted "proof" of something on page 111, I posted proof of what I said on page 132 supporting my claim. Even if what was said on page 111 you are interpreting as me saying no changes ever to the lab, my statements since are CLEAR that I do indeed support changes that keep AC in the lab.

You are knowingly posting incorrect information now.

I see, why are you supporting them now? Did you have sex and are feeling generous or something?

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goetzjam wrote:

There is a ladder for how fast the lab is completed.

https://www.pathofexile.com/labyrinth.

The videos (and the ladder for the lab) prove that clinging to the statement that 45 min is a "good time" or whatever Chris said exactly is just wrong. Don't cling to stuff that isn't logical, people were doing sub 10 min runs before it was massively released to the public.

And the range is 4 minutes to 2 hours. So what does that tell us now? Do you think the majority is as good as the best 10 people in here? Because the others needed 20+ minutes and 16-24 needed 45+ minutes. So I guess Chris estimation is not so bad for an "avarage run". Just because SOME people manage it in 10 minutes doesn't mean that those guys stand for the avarage. So you are the only one who isn't logical here, because you take the best people from the ladder as proof that lab doesnt take 45 minutes, while there are indeed people on the ladder who need that long (which you completely ignore in your statements about ladder being proof).

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goetzjam wrote:

When people say I like class gameplay, thats like saying I like rolling my face on the keyboard and not having to pay attention to the challenge. GGG never has to develop content that appeals to everyone, the whole game wasn't suppose to appeal to everyone, it was suppose to be a successor almost to D2, so if they tried to for example cater to people that like D3, they would fail to capture an audience that likes d2 a lot.

I liked PoE even before we had one-click-everything-dies builds. I loved poe without CoC or EQ. I liked it without the uniques that enabled those OP builds. And the game was hard enough before they introduced all this stuff (many people avoided Merciless Dominus, because he was really hard). The problem is, GGG lost track of balance at some point and now they try to bring "challenging" content that is completely not in line with the classic gameplay. So instead of trying to get back their original balancing, they gate stuff behind lab, where players prediction and movement is tested. I just think that was a mistake, because many players got used to the PoE gameplay and liked it that way. They should have introduced the lab first (without AC points) and should have taken a look if people really like that content. Without the AC points, the participation rate in lab would have been a good indicator if the community wants to play the lab or not and THEN they should have added the AC points (either behind lab, if people actually liked the content or somewehre else if they didnt).

They should just nerf CoC and make balance-changes to certain uniques. They also should scale down skills like EQ a little bit, because they are just to strong. That's why everyone plays them. Clearspeed is everything in the current meta and that's just not healthy for this game. And with the AC classes, clearspeed became even more important...

And I think you are wrong at one thing: Yes, GGG does not have to develop the game in order to appeal to people who like D3, but they should try to cater people who played PoE since it's beginning. Those, who spent money and made PoE successful. These players are their core playerbase. Ignoring them like they do now can lead to a serious image damage at some point. Robocraft is another game who recently did a massive change to the game and people started to hate on the game. If you go on steam now, you can see that the user votes have drastically changed since then. PoE is still good in steam, but this can change very fast if GGG takes some more wrong steps that don't appeal to many of the core-playerbase. That's how this business works, especially for online games: If you try to hard to develop a game that you envision without listening to your playerbase, you will mess up.

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goetzjam wrote:

This isn't to say they can make a change to make it appeal more to people that have issues with the lab, as stated so many pages ago, I support a change that offers more of a maze like experience in the lab, instead of a trap like experience. But I can't simply fathom how offering AC points behind content you do anyway adds anything interesting to the game or is an actual rewarding experience for the player.

That's why I made this thread:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1681139

But I guess that thread didn't have enough flame/rage to get enough attention.

About rewarding experience: Well, I prefer having no experience but a reward then having a boring experience with a reward. Getting my AC points after Malachai would speed up the character progression alot (and many people ask for progression speed anyway), since I dont have to struggle through the labyrinth (or pay for the rush). If I ever feel like it, I can still do the lab, but then I can at least avoid this boring/annoying content entirely if I dont want to do it. And then it would also make sense to finaly finish the story line completely (killing merc malachai). If the AC points are really the only reason why 99% of the player actually play the lab, then the lab is a failure in my opinion, since the lab itself should be a fun experience and not the reward at the end.

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goetzjam wrote:

You assume it means it should forever and always take that long, despite the fact that he has been proven otherwise. Again sticking to the notion that it should take 45 min for a run is just asinine.

But where is your proof that he meant initially? I also play League of Legends and the developer says that a round takes 45 minutes at avarage. Most of my games are finished after 30 minutes and then there are still some rounds that take 45 minutes or longer.

How long a lab run takes does not only depend on players skill, it also heavily depends on the layout (number of ways, doors, difficulty of trap sequences etc.). So while there are people who can do it in 10 minutes, there are also times when they need longer. And now think about players who dont do labyrinth 5 hours a day (like those who offer rushes or have characters designed for doing lab). Your ladder is a good example that some DO need the 45 minutes or even longer then that.

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goetzjam wrote:

If you have connection issues and know that the lab has to be done in one swoop you probably shouldn't be taking extra time to complete the challenge, thats just common sense dude.

But I need the AC points? Lol... How hard is that to understand, that PoE is all about character progression and that AC classes are as important as good equipment? AC classes are build defining, you can't just ignore it...

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goetzjam wrote:

This is just incorrect and proves that this massive list of a thread assumes whatever is on the last page and no one will read all of the pages of the content. This is why massive threads like this never accomplish anything.

They dont? I remember the big threads about free allocation of loot. People flamed each other and all sides had some arguments. In the end, GGG decided to give the options free4all, perm allocation and pseudo perm allocation. So while GGG may not be very vocal in this matter, those threads still show that many are unsatisfied and GGG may adress this at some point. If no one would complain, they would never had a reason to change anything at all.

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goetzjam wrote:

No shit, if you can choose to do content that is challenging or content you can faceroll, players like yourself would always choose the easier route. Hell many players would, because path of least resistance, that is why the AC points must remain in the lab and if a solution is needed one that offers a different twist to the "issue" of the lab, aka traps would be needed.

Bullshit. I dont support pre-leveled characters and I dont pay for my piety/dom/mal kills. I do the content by myself as good as I can. Like I said above, I played the game when it was really hard and bosses where challanging. Today, you can have 0% cold res and facetank Mervail in norm. Even in cruel you can easily survive her with 0% res. That's the problem: The story-content is not challanging at all. I would prefer challanging story content that feels rewarding and get the AC points at the end of act 4 then facerolling through the content just to get to the point of doing maps. I'm by no means a good player and I know that, because I dont play enough and dont have enough motivation to level up my characters to 85+, so I never did the high tier maps. But that doesnt mean I want to faceroll everything. I just dont want to feel bored when playing the game and lab does let me feel bored, sadly.

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goetzjam wrote:

Except you can make a design choice based on people like you. Simply put you put this into a situation where the only way you die to lag or desync is by traps and that is 100% false and you fucking know it.

Don't think for a second that just because they make improvements to connection methods or such, that its actually a super large problem for people, seeing as you are the first one to even mention this of my knowledge in this thread, it goes to prove how small of a number of people will use the "connection" method as an excuse. Despite that you still say you can complete the challenge, so what exactly is the problem then, that if you spend more then 30 min on the lab you can\will get disconnected?

many people already said desync/lag is a deadly problem in lab and that super accurate gameplay is a no-ogo for online games. I dont expect you to have read all the 170+ pages, but the arguments were already made before.

And the problem is, that the content is boring (not just for me). Dodging traps and having to spent 40 minutes in one swoop without being able to tp is a nogo for me in PoE. When I do maps, I have at least 6 portals for me, so maps are kinda forgiving if you need to tp out, but the lab doesnt work that way and forces me to play an entirely different game. If I want to dodge traps and pull levers, then there are much better games out there with such content.

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goetzjam wrote:

If it wasn't rewarding you wouldn't be doing it.

It's like saying if school wouldn't be rewarding, you wouldn't go to school. In order to be successful in life, you have to do the school in order to get your school report. But that doesnt change the fact that school doesnt feel rewarding for many children. They just have to do it. Same goes for AC points: If I want to have a good strong character, I have to do the lab and get my AC points in the end. It doesn't feel rewarding. The only thing I feel after doing the lab is "finaly I got over this shit and can go on". But I dont expect you to understand this, since you like the lab and cant put yourself in people who dont enjoy it...

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goetzjam wrote:

15c isn't shit, but even thats an overpayment.

2c for norm lab, 3c for cruel lab, 4c for merc lab and 6c for uber lab. Sometimes people offer the run cheaper, but you may have to wait to get those prices. And while 15c is cheap for you, it isnt for others. Like I said: You are not the avarage and you shouldn't think that you speak for the avarage.