SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Labyrinth is so boring, tedious, and just simply not fun.

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

Morbo, we've established that the lab isn't a skill-check.

No we have not. Regen + armor builds have a easier time and can survive more punishment, but you still can't just mindlessly run through everything, esp. not in Uber. For EVA/CI/hybrid builds its even more of a skill-check.

You guys woldn't complain so much, if you could just offscreen pew pew traps with 1-million DPS builds. But since you have to jump over one or two traps and timely zig-zag a gauntlet, it's the end of thew world.

PoE is full of time-sinks. But this 1-hour of Lab to get 6 opieop asc points, is what "breakes the game"? right...

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morbo wrote:

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

Morbo, we've established that the lab isn't a skill-check.

No we have not. Regen + armor builds have a easier time and can survive more punishment, but you still can't just mindlessly run through everything, esp. not in Uber. For EVA/CI/hybrid builds its even more of a skill-check.

You guys woldn't complain so much, if you could just offscreen pew pew traps with 1-million DPS builds. But since you have to jump over one or two traps and timely zig-zag a gauntlet, it's the end of thew world.

PoE is full of time-sinks. But this 1-hour of Lab to get 6 opieop asc points, is what "breakes the game"? right...

Sorry Morbo, but you are flat out wrong when you tell me I wouldn't complain so much. Speak for yourself. You don't know me and pretending that you do shows that you are not being reasonable.

We aren't asking for ascendancy points without a comparable challenge. That would be stupid because that is not how it works for fun games. There are many alternatives in the OP. If you think that none of them present the challenge of the labyrinth then you probably haven't even read that section of the OP.

Labyrinth is boring tedious and not fun, at least for some people. Many people have quit because of it. I'm certain that far more quit and quietly go away than come to the feedback and suggestions forum and post their views on labyrinth. Although many come into these threads to say goodbye. I don't play HC but I understand that the HC league was very lightly populated this league, I would guess because of the labyrinth. That too indicates that there is a problem that GGG needs to solve. And YES that horrible hour or two of labyrinth game play is the reason! So open your checkbook for a what is/has been a whole lot more than just me.

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Turtledove wrote:

There are many alternatives in the OP. If you think that none of them present the challenge of the labyrinth then you probably haven't even read that section of the OP.

I'm not against alternatives, under a few caveats. I have presented my own alternatives, too.

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Turtledove wrote:

Labyrinth is boring tedious and not fun, at least for some people. Many people have quit because of it. I'm certain that far more quit and quietly go away than come to the feedback and suggestions forum and post their views on labyrinth.

Many people would leave no matter what the alternative. Some people hate traps (but claim traps are piss easy?), some hate Izaro, because he "hits too hard", some say the labyrinth itself (I guess layouts or tilesets) is boring, some dont like that you need to restart on death, etc, etc...

Short by removing it, GGG can't fix it for everyone. And GGG will not backtrack on a whole expansion.

What I learned in these many years playing PoE, giving feedback and complaining on the forum, is that some things will not change and I need to suck it up. Eg. PoE will never be a self-found friendly game, because is designed around trade. And I guess the lab is here to stay, so the sooner you get used to it, the better.

To gate the only thing that makes fun here = skilltree

its done imo

here happens the same shit i have seen in sooo many games before...

i am very frustrated about the gamechanges

act 5 - more nice maps - new monster/bosses was all the game needede till act 100 or whatever.

nostalgic nice action

and the discussion about "Noobs-Casuals and Pros" are real blah.

everybody can play so slow or fast as he want.

meta.......

i am not in competition with anyone.

i played with fun till the lab came out.

now i am more off than on.... deja vu like in the game before.

oh noooo not again.....pls

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morbo wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

There are many alternatives in the OP. If you think that none of them present the challenge of the labyrinth then you probably haven't even read that section of the OP.

I'm not against alternatives, under a few caveats. I have presented my own alternatives, too.

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Turtledove wrote:

Labyrinth is boring tedious and not fun, at least for some people. Many people have quit because of it. I'm certain that far more quit and quietly go away than come to the feedback and suggestions forum and post their views on labyrinth.

Many people would leave no matter what the alternative. Some people hate traps (but claim traps are piss easy?), some hate Izaro, because he "hits too hard", some say the labyrinth itself (I guess layouts or tilesets) is boring, some dont like that you need to restart on death, etc, etc...

Short by removing it, GGG can't fix it for everyone. And GGG will not backtrack on a whole expansion.

What I learned in these many years playing PoE, giving feedback and complaining on the forum, is that some things will not change and I need to suck it up. Eg. PoE will never be a self-found friendly game, because is designed around trade. And I guess the lab is here to stay, so the sooner you get used to it, the better.

While it is true that people leave all the time. I assert that at no time in the past has there been new content added to PoE that has generated anywhere near as much hate/controversy as labyrinth. The number of people leaving or no longer donating is something that GGG probably has a very good idea of but they have not made that information public. I assume this is the key information that will be used by GGG to decide if they are to do something about this in 2.4.

No way am I ever going to get used to doing the labyrinth. I've already mentioned to you what the much better alternative is. For example, if the first time I ever played PoE was Prophecy, I would have gotten to the labyrinth and immediately quit, assuming that I hadn't already quit after going into a trial. Some people don't like trap gameplay. I'm one of those that don't like trap gameplay. Other people don't like the trap gameplay with a mouse instead of a controller. While some other people have said that they just don't like trap gameplay mixed with their ARPG gameplay. Like I said, I assume that the labyrinth will be made optional in 2.4. I really don't care if it stays, as long as the ascendancy points can be earned without the trap gameplay. If my assumption turns out to be wrong about 2.4 then I will simply uninstall and be done with it. Until then I'll continue to post on the Feedback and Suggestions forum in the hope that GGG will decide to fix the labyrinth in 2.4. So, the sooner you get used to it, the better. :-)

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morbo wrote:

Many people would leave no matter what the alternative. Some people hate traps (but claim traps are piss easy?), some hate Izaro, because he "hits too hard", some say the labyrinth itself (I guess layouts or tilesets) is boring, some dont like that you need to restart on death, etc, etc...

Morbo, you appear to be confused by the distinction between "fun" and "easy." Equally, between "tedious" and "difficult." While tedium contributes to a *kind* of difficulty, it's not at all the kind of difficulty people are talking about when they say, "Suck it up, man. The Labyrinth is not that hard." Those statements are usually a kind of straw-man sophistry, meant to distract from the genuine objection.

It's a bit obnoxious of me to keep quoting myself, but it beats typing shit out over and over again, so here, once more:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

1. Objections to the trap gameplay per se. If you think traps of this nature don't belong in PoE because it is too harsh a departure from the existing gameplay, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game that is a D2 successor, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game subject to network hiccups, or if you think traps of this nature don't belong with a mouse+keyboard control scheme, your objection probably fits in this category.

2. Objections to the non-optional nature of the content. If you think AC points make this content a de facto mandatory part of the game, and you think it should be optional to the same extent other non-expansion additions to the game are optional, your objection probably fits in this category.

3. Objections to the reward structure. If you run the labyrinth despite hating it, believe that content should be intrinsically fun, and compare the additional rewards added to the lab by GGG to the higher salaries enjoyed by garbage collectors working in large cities, your objection probably fits in this category.

4. Objections to GGG's approach and implementation. If you think a divided, toxic community is an unhealthy community, and that the labyrinth as it is currently implemented is causing exactly that, your objection probably fits in this category.

5. Objection to the difficulty of the traps and/or labyrinth. If you think the traps and/or Izaro encounters are too difficult and should be nerfed, your objection probably fits in this category. (Very few posters fit into this category, but you'll understand why I included it in a moment.)

People who hate traps are talking about #1. People who find the entire labyrinth tedious, not just the traps, are (usually) talking about #3. The straw man I referred to earlier is #5.

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morbo wrote:

What I learned in these many years playing PoE, giving feedback and complaining on the forum, is that some things will not change and I need to suck it up. Eg. PoE will never be a self-found friendly game, because is designed around trade. And I guess the lab is here to stay, so the sooner you get used to it, the better.

I've had fun playing self-found, exclusively, since the early days of beta. And still do. It's almost as fun as it always has been (the Labyrinth puts a serious damper on the game's fun), despite the game being designed partially around trading. With Masters and cards, it's easier than ever. I suggest you make a thread on the topic, and see what kinds of suggestions people make. (PM me if you do, and I'll pop in and make a few suggestions of my own.)

1.) Do traps really not belong into an ARPG? Look at them from the point of gamepaly mechanics: what does the player need to do to fight traps? You need to jump over them, outrun them, avoid them. Is this not what players do in ARPGs? But in PoE people got used too much to standing still and offscreening whole packs without having to move or avoid things. To those who find traps "out of place", I suggest they play more melee builds.

2.) There's a ton of non-optional stuff you have to do in PoE. The Lab is a part of your char progression. Not all expansions need to be the same optional thing. Master aren't optional either, you have to level them each new league.

3.) The Lab is a specific area with specific rewards. The game is full of specific maps with specific boss fights / rewards (div. cards etc), that players don't neccessarily enjoy, but run because of rewards. The Lab is not out of place in this regard.

4.) This community has always been divided on many core design aspects of PoE, with many heated debates going on. GGG's job is to deliver a game according to their vision / business plan, no to be the UN messiah of world peace and harmony.

5.) The Lab is the first content in PoE that is not entirely of static difficulty and cannot be facerolled with your eyes closed. Some players have problems with this, ye, I'd say most of the complainers fit into this category. But if they cant put the effort into overcoming the obstacle, they can still pay for a Lab carry.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I've had fun playing self-found, exclusively, since the early days of beta. And still do. It's almost as fun as it always has been (the Labyrinth puts a serious damper on the game's fun), despite the game being designed partially around trading. With Masters and cards, it's easier than ever. I suggest you make a thread on the topic, and see what kinds of suggestions people make. (PM me if you do, and I'll pop in and make a few suggestions of my own.)

I've already said everything I had to say about SF, I'm not interested in starting this debate again. Gear aquisition is currently the least problematic aspect and it's actually in a good spot. Trade-centric design permates the whole game - manily it's a problem with endgame: map drops, Atziri pyramidal scheme, Uber lab RNG/trade gating... etc.