SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

I see many objections to the labyrinth which are not necessarily connected. It may therefore be useful to our thought process to classify them.

1. Objections to the trap gameplay per se. If you think traps of this nature don't belong in PoE because it is too harsh a departure from the existing gameplay, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game that is a D2 successor, if you think traps of this nature don't belong in any game subject to network hiccups, or if you think traps of this nature don't belong with a mouse+keyboard control scheme, your objection probably fits in this category.

2. Objections to the non-optional nature of the content. If you think AC points make this content a de facto mandatory part of the game, and you think it should be optional to the same extent other non-expansion additions to the game are optional, your objection probably fits in this category.

3. Objections to the reward structure. If you run the labyrinth despite hating it, believe that content should be intrinsically fun, and compare the additional rewards added to the lab by GGG to the higher salaries enjoyed by garbage collectors working in large cities, your objection probably fits in this category.

4. Objections to GGG's approach and implementation. If you think a divided, toxic community is an unhealthy community, and that the labyrinth as it is currently implemented is causing exactly that, your objection probably fits in this category.

5. Objection to the difficulty of the traps and/or labyrinth. If you think the traps and/or Izaro encounters are too difficult and should be nerfed, your objection probably fits in this category. (Very few posters fit into this category, but you'll understand why I included it in a moment.)

Feel free to quote and/or use my numbers as shorthand to clarify your objection.

Now, almost all of these issues need to be addressed, in my opinion, but keep in mind that others don't share my opinion and may only be concerned with one or two of the above.

Therefore, if you are going to defend the labyrinth by providing a rebuttal to a specific post, keep in mind that your rebuttal is valid only to the extent that it matches the category of the criticism. I see certain posters not doing this (you probably know who you are), which is a form of sophistry (intellectual dishonesty), if deliberate.

You may feel tempted to do it anyway, but don't bother. We can all tell that the reasoning is fallacious, even if not every one of us is able to point to the exact fallacy as I just did.

OK, carry on. :)

@gibbousmoon nice post, I think you did a good job categorizing. It seems pretty complete as well. The trap category (1) is large enough that it could perhaps even be broken down into subcategories. Or maybe add mention having very high level characters dying to low level traps, visibility in the labyrinth doesn't allow planning a route through the traps, not allowing town portals in denial of real life needs (letting dog out, changing baby diaper, obeying other quick honey-do commands, etc.) and in game needs like trade.

I also like your number 4, in my opinion this is a bigger more caustic and damaging problem than I first first thought. I find this to be sort of a "secret/unspoken" concern since it has gotten so little attention and I find it slowly corroding my previously extremely good opinion of the general community atmosphere.

I'm not against reworking the Lab, so that players that want speed will need to invest skill, those who want safety will need to invest time. Or something similar.

But if I hear once more how Ascendancy points are "gated" and should be "free", I'm gona punch someone -_-

Merciless Lab done at level 58 (entered at 57), that is 10 levels below zone. 4.2k life with all self-found twink gear and a 5L. I even messed up the idols phase and Izaro was 100% buffed by idols.





Now you are gonna tell me how you "can't ascend at level 80"? And should be given free Asc points.

Get out! Out! Take their coats and throw them out!

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morbo wrote:

I'm not against reworking the Lab, so that players that want speed will need to invest skill, those who want safety will need to invest time. Or something similar.

But if I hear once more how Ascendancy points are "gated" and should be "free", I'm gona punch someone -_-

Merciless Lab done at level 58 (entered at 57), that is 10 levels below zone. 4.2k life with all self-found twink gear and a 5L. I even messed up the idols phase and Izaro was 100% buffed by idols.

SF common gear

Now you are gonna tell me how you "can't ascend at level 80"? And should be given free Asc points.

Get out! Out! Take their coats and throw them out!

Its funny because liftingnerdbro recently made a video with the new doomfletch with no ascendancy points and it clears T14 content with no issues at all.

Ascendancy points clearly required

top lols.

Dear morbo if you felt the need to brag about your latest run this is not the right place to do so. If you thought it is then you clearly have not read the opening post or you did but did not understand neither the reasoning nor the suggestions or the purpose of it. Take your time and read, not just look at the title and make your conclusions. Posting what you thing is relevant does not make it so. Thank you and gl with your labyrinth runs.


Dear tinfoil, seems like the latest burn inflicted to another thread messed up with other organs of yours too, im sorry for that. Im currently 89 level with no ascendancy class at PHC clearing t11 (no higher drops yet). Ofcourse you can still go and do high level content with no ascendancies, that doesnt make them optional though, anything character optimization/creation/flavour related IS NOT OPTIONAL in an ARPG. The inability to undestand simple thing like that is mind numbing. I will once more ask you to go back to your bridge.


Thank you gibbousmoon for that analysis and while my personal preferance to what needs changing is firm, i agree that if everything that you mentioned was addressed then we would have a perfect labyrinth experience for everyone.

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Regulator wrote:

Dear morbo if you felt the need to brag about your latest run this is not the right place to do so.

The point is not to brag. I completely disagree with the notion that Asc points are "gated" or that should be "set free". Obtaining the first six points takes little effort and is 100% deterministic. There is no "gating" other than skill, a tad of knowledge of trap gauntlets and a balanced build that can defeat Izaro.

If people can't overlevel and take mere ~45 minutes to do all three Labs, then they don't deserve those points. The game is playable without Asc points anyway.

=> Doesnt make them optional

=> People playing without Ascendancies all the time

=> Even high profile players playing without Ascending saying you can play just fine without them and that its extra power

=> Clearly gives you the option to either use it or not use it

=> Doesnt understand that there are people who quite literally wont use the free power creep and will play without Ascending

=> Says everyone is a troll because you yourself cant understand its completely within logic to say its optional

Latest insult that i clearly responded to and you ignored because i called you out ? Wow, yeah, much burn, soo hot.

At this point im pretty sure the one trolling here is you, i mean you keep mentioning trolls but you keep blowing off logic. Maybe the one who needed to return to their bridge is you ? :D

Isnt it funny how to of the most prominent complainers are in a guild together with practically no one else in it ? Guess what they say is true, misery loves company and people like to avoid others who act miserable.

"

morbo wrote:

I'm not against reworking the Lab, so that players that want speed will need to invest skill, those who want safety will need to invest time. Or something similar.

But if I hear once more how Ascendancy points are "gated" and should be "free", I'm gona punch someone -_-

Merciless Lab done at level 58 (entered at 57), that is 10 levels below zone. 4.2k life with all self-found twink gear and a 5L. I even messed up the idols phase and Izaro was 100% buffed by idols.

SF common gear

Now you are gonna tell me how you "can't ascend at level 80"? And should be given free Asc points.

Get out! Out! Take their coats and throw them out!

I really don't get all the fuss about the word gated. I didn't play WoW but i understand it was something that originated there. What's the deal?

Also, just did all the uber lab trials first time in hardcore and got the relevant achievement. Again, it's not about the difficulty.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I really don't get all the fuss about the word gated. I didn't play WoW but i understand it was something that originated there. What's the deal?

I dunno, I never played WoW or any other MMORPG.

The Uber Lab is gated by luck, the first 6 points are not. Getting them is 100% deterministic and requires about 1 hour of gameplay in total. People who really hate the Lab, can just do all of the chore in one go when they overlevel. This way you save the most time.

I mean, playing endgame for 100 hours and not loot T14/15 maps, now that's gated... -_-

Anyway, I tried Uber at lvl 65 and almost got the fvker, just 1 pixel of health remained. Arrgh, I'm pissed!

Doing Uber with this build should be a cakewalk @75+. Pew pew crit bow ranged builds can clear whole screens of maps, melee left-bottom side of the tree can run Lab easier. I think its a fair deal (since total balance will never exist)

"

morbo wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I really don't get all the fuss about the word gated. I didn't play WoW but i understand it was something that originated there. What's the deal?

I dunno, I never played WoW or any other MMORPG.

The Uber Lab is gated by luck, the first 6 points are not. Getting them is 100% deterministic and requires about 1 hour of gameplay in total. People who really hate the Lab, can just do all of it in one go when they overlevel. This way you save the most time.

I mean, playing endgame for 100 hours and not loot T14/15 maps, now that's gated... -_-

Anyway, I tried Uber at lvl 65 and almost got the fvker, just 1 pixel of health remained. Arrgh, I'm pissed!

Spoiler

Doing Uber with this build should be a cakewalk @75+. Pew pew crit bow ranged builds can clear whole screens of maps, melee right side of the tree can run Lab easier. I think its a fair deal (since total balance will never exist)

Gated in this context simply means that in order to get the ascendancy points the Labyrinth must be run. The ascendancy points are gated by the Labyrinth.

This is a normal definition of gate. Here's three online dictionaries that I accessed and copied definitions from.

Gate: any means of access or entrance:
The gate to stardom is talent. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gate?s=t

Gated: having or controlled by a gate <a gated entrance> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gated

Gate: A means of access: the gate to riches. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gate