SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]
" 1. 9-15 minutes if you have learned the content (You said yourself that you need to learn it). This takes more time then just 9-15 minutes. I need to invest alot of time JUST for 9-15 minutes, which I do not even enjoy. The relation between time played and time for learning is just not right (for me), especially if you do not even enjoy those 9-15 minutes. Most people only do it for the AC points and many do not touch the lab after that again. 2. I play a game to enjoy it, not for the feeling I have to work for it. The moment a game feels more like work then an enjoying experience, it is not a game for me anymore. 3. Why do you think people still complain about lab? GGG added alot of content before the labyrinth and there were always some guys who complained, but never to a degree where the discussion held up several month. Even act 4, which is not liked by some people, doesn't seem to be such a big issue compared to the lab. If people do not enjoy content, the devs should think about how most of the players can actually enjoy it, especially if it is an important part of the character customization (=AC points), since poe is all about character customization. 4. If my build would matter so much: Where do my totems help with the lab? Where does my enfeebale aura help? How does my 4k health pool help if the damage is %-based? Does my armor actually mitigate trap damage? What about evasion? Will I "dodge" trap damage soemtimes? I guess not. THose are all factors that play a big role in the classic gameplay, but the trap parts only make some character stats/equipment important (movement speed, mobility and flasks). Last edited by AceNightfire#0980 on Jun 15, 2016, 8:59:16 AM
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OP UPDATE :Somewhat new and refined "labyrinth rework idea" number 4. After some thoughts i believe thats a balanced way to add checkpoints/allow portals so people can ascend but not cheese enchants and rewards that will ruin the economy.
On a side note, the traps in the boss room in the Plaza map is the right way to implement traps in the game. Consecutive rooms with cranks and levers and push objects and other jump-around-arcade/platform-bullshit are not. Inundated with cockroaches, I am
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216 - labyrinth rework ideas/suggestions |
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" The helm thing is sort of off-topic; let's let it go for expediency sake. If all people were asking for was the ability to take a zoom-out look at the trap gauntlet I would be on your side of the fence. It's not necessary but it might help people. The thing to remember is these sequences are usually repetitive. There are variations and combinations but the overall patterns remain the same. Seeing only the first part is fine if you remember what the other parts looked like last time; if you can't remember them a zoom-out would be helpful. Still keeping AC and the lab whole and unchanged for the purpose of Ascending. I don't have these "imprecise" control issues so I can't say I understand this. Best advice would be to take it all in a measured and methodical fashion. Don't panic and pay attention to what you're clicking. |
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" The content is always challenging before you learn it. This applies to just about everything in the game. The difference here is most of you skip all the content and just grind mindlessly in groups; that's fine if that's what you enjoy but I sincerely hope the game design doesn't shift any further towards this particular player base as it has done so to a large degree already much to the detriment of all (meta nerfs, spike damage increases, xp decreases, etc). " The lab is enjoyable in that it is challenging with some fixed rewards (AC being one of those rewards). A lot of the game has no rewards (bosses, quests, etc) so the fact that the lab always rewards you is different, fun, and a nice change of pace (that's an opinion but so is your lack of enjoyment). It really sounds like you don't like being challenged. " People like to complain; period, pretty much end of story. People will always complain, even if the lab changes tomorrow this will remain true. People still complain about act 4, you're wrong on that score. People complain about leveling masters every league. People complain about a lot of things in the game, but saying "I don't think this is fun" is hardly constructive and certainly doesn't mean something should be done to make a particular aspect of the game more fun for specific people. Shouting the longest and the loudest does not make your viewpoint the most valid. " You can use totems to block dart traps, very useful. You can also use them to lure monsters out of doorways or out of your path. You can also use them to kill monsters from outside a room to refill your flasks if you're out. " 35% reservation: I would take this off and put on vitality for the run. You can hot-swap it at Izaro assuming you need it for him. If you're over-leveled you shouldn't need it. Character adaptation is important in other areas of PoE as well, not just here. " Your life regen and leech are still active so naturally a nice size life pool helps mitigate damage from traps as they are a timed damage metric. If you regenerate very quickly it's hard to die to something that happens at intervals. You do still need to fight Izaro so having life/leech/regen will help with this as well. " I think armor and evade are ignored but honestly I haven't experimented sufficiently to say for certain. I do know your chaos resist mitigates the poison darts. Some of the traps might roll armor/evade checks. " Yes, you can dodge darts for sure. I think you can dodge other traps but I would have to test it more to tell you and my dodge character is alive on HC so I probably won't go stand on traps to see if only 1/4 of them hit her any time soon. I can tell you she has the absolute easiest time sprinting through so my guess is dodge rolls on more than one trap type. I do also have about 70% dodge so you might need to invest in it to see a return. You were pretty much just wrong there. Again, this is because you have not taken time to learn the content. You also ignored a lot of build characteristics (conveniently I might add) that everyone will universally agree help in the lab: Mobility (move speed, movement skills), high DPS (really helps to be able to thrash Izaro), high life regen (seriously trivializes most traps), maxed/over-maxed resistance (fire floor, chaos darts), and these are just a few. |
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" 1. Never played in groups (solo player right from the start) 2. Always played hardcore 3. The first time you play the game the difficulty rises very slowly. You can barely die in normal, might have some first troubles in curel when you are there for the first time and merciless is really challanging at the first time (and act 4 can be even if you are experienced). But you learn while playing the game in your own pace. The lab on the other side starts with a high difficulty. Instead of some scattered traps, you get rooms full of traps right from the start, even in normal. The game kinda expects you to be able to do it or to die, without giving you a choice to learn. The trap sequences in the normal lab shouldnt be harder then the trial traps in normal, but they certainly are and get even more difficult in cruel/merciless. If you are not used to play an arcade-like game with keyboard/mouse it's like telling someone who has never driven a car to drive in the normal traffic. " It's enjoyable IF you DO like this kind of gameplay. Dodging around traps and using mobility/silver flask all the time is fun for some and no fun for others. If you need fixed rewards to make certain game aspects enjoyable, then people don't play the lab for the sake of having fun with the lab, they play it for getting the AC points and will not touch it again after that. I wouldn't call that enjoying something. It's like saying that work is fun because you get money at the end of the month. We both know that probably most workers do hate working, but only do so because they must to make a living. " Ofc they do. Like you said, a game will never make 100% happy. The difference here is: Are we really talking about a small minority that doesnt like the lab or a big part of the community? I see people every day in the global chat hating on the lab, but I dont see people complaining there about act 4 or leveling masters or whatsoever. Look at the first page of the feedback forum. You will see that besides labyrinth complains, nearly no topic is complaining about the stuff you have mentioned. THat means the community has accepted that content more or less, with some exceptions. " 35% reservation: I would take this off and put on vitality for the run. You can hot-swap it at Izaro assuming you need it for him. If you're over-leveled you shouldn't need it. Character adaptation is important in other areas of PoE as well, not just here.[/quote] Monsters are not the problem. They usually appear close to small trap layouts which can be avoided with lightning warp. In big trap rooms though, this doesnt help much. Dart traps are the least of an issue. The biggest problem are obviously sentry drones or these standing rotating pillars in combination of other traps. And that's it. You can't do much about these. " Life pool shouldnt change much: If you have 1000 life and regenerate 10% per second and the trap does 30% per second, you lose 20% per second. Same happens if you have 5000 life and you regen 10% per second and the trap does 30% per second. So the life regen stat is the only useful part, while my life pool doesnt change much. I can only take some additional hits from monsters while being hit from traps when I have a huge life pool, but monsters are not the problem, like I said. " Might... In my experience, they don't. I ran labyrinth now several times with an high armor+high life and a character with barely nothing (had no good equipment during that time). Both character nearly got the same damage. My high armor + high life only survived longer, because h e had 8% life reg per second from nodes. My 10k armor though dont make any difference. " I clearly stated before that speed and life regen helps. But those are only a very few from all the available stats. DPS doesn't help with traps in any way (like I said, monsters are not the problem and I'm not complaining about Izaro as an enemy himself). I also said that I tried the lab but that I think that the relation between time needed to learn the lab mechanics and the actual playtime you "could" enjoy is not good, at least not for me. Last edited by AceNightfire#0980 on Jun 15, 2016, 10:53:13 AM
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" I think this is acceptable (playing the lab for rewards only) as the rewards are guaranteed (even though the fun might not be). Fun is a subjective measure of the lab's value, rewards are not. " If you don't see those issues being discussed then you aren't looking close enough (forums only, I do not sit in global). I would waste time finding threads for you but I think it is a waste of my time. Suffice to say there has been at least (1) master complaint thread and at least (1) act 4 complaint thread since the most recent release. I said nothing about minority/majority and have no comment on that beyond: does it matter? The point is liking or disliking anything in no way validates or invalidates it; it just indicates a like or dislike. Again, maybe this isn't the game for you and maybe Ascendancy will make you take a break. I'v taken breaks before; I know others have too. Maybe when you come back the lab will be gone completely (along with AC), no one knows. What I do know is that complaining is just complaining; it's not a moralistic and innovative way to encourage growth and change as this thread would have you believe. " The fact that these are not useful for you does not discredit the fact that they are a useful tactic involving totems. So these specific trap types are a problem for you? Step 1 is always identifying the problem. These traps will always follow a pattern. You won't be able to see the whole layout but you will be able to stop in a safe spot (always) where you can take measure of the upcoming room. Key here is to be patient. Stop when you get to the sequence and watch for at least (1) rotation. Note when the safest point to start is and be ready to go when the traps are at that point (it's usually after the very first moving trap clears your path sufficiently to proceed safely; there is no sequence that requires getting hit). Once you start, and this is very important, do not double back. If you make a mistake it's fine provided you own that mistake (use an instant flask that you should definitely have anyways for HC) and push on to the next safe point. Doubling back or stopping is a great way to die so don't do that. Again, these always repeat so once you get the hang of it you won't even need to stop and watch. " You missed the whole point (either on purpose or accidentally). If the trap deals 30% damage every 3 seconds and you regenerate 10% every second the trap can never kill you. If the trap deals 30% damage every 3 seconds and you regenerate 5% the trap can slowly kill you. If you regenerate 0% the trap will kill you in roughly 3 hits. Again: It is a TIMED damage metric so life regeneration will ALWAYS help you. " As I said, I think they are ignored. It doesn't sound like you have sufficiently tested each trap type either though so I don't think either one of us is a qualified expert on the topic. " If you don't think DPS matters for clearing obstructing monsters (that deliberately stop you on traps) try going in there with no skills or weapons equipped; I'm interested to see if you revise your opinion at that point. Your most important line here: "...is not good, at least for me." And this is why I don't think it should change. It's a matter of personal preference that will vary player to player; I do not think this is a good measure for game direction especially when the vast majority of people complain without learning how to clear the content safely and quickly. Once it becomes safe and quick it can be enjoyed. There's maybe a (3) hours time investment involved with mastering the lab; most of us have played the game for years so really (3) hours over a few months is nothing. |
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" Then the better solution would obviously be to move the AC points to somewhere where most people have fun (regular poe gameplay) and keep the Lab untouched for those who enjoy the lab. It's a win-win. " If you have to SEARCH the forum to find these threads, then they are actually not discussed or those topics are not frequently visited by people who care about it. Lab on the other sides gets actively discussed since it was released. The break you are talking about will not remove the AC points from the lab. I just want to enjoy the regular poe gameplay and get my AC points, which ARE important for character customization. The most funny thing about ac points is, that the benefits from the ascendency classes helps you more with the regular poe gameplay then it does with the trap gameplay. Yet you have to do the trap gameplay to get the points. If you would get them from Malachai, it would make more sense. WAY more sense. " There are rooms where I can't see the next safe spot. So the moment I go in, I just need to hope that I get rhough unharmed and find the savespot. No matter how careful I am, I'm just not the guy who likes accurate positioning with mouse/keybord. I know the rules you are talking about and it's logic. Those rules apply to many games I usually play with the controler. So those aren't a problem for me. I just don't want to practice the whole thing with mouse/keyboard just for an "15 minute" run. " Who said 30% every 3 seconds? Traps usually do 30% PER second. The wiki also states that traps usually kill you within very few seconds without counter measures, so 30% is probably and underestimate of the real trap damage. Here's the link if you want to read it yourself: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/The_Lord%27s_Labyrinth#Blade_sentries " Spike traps are not a big issue, since they deal roughly 1/3 or 1/4 damage. With good life reg per second, you may even outheal them. The real deadly traps are all the moving traps (Blade Sentries, Saw Blades, Spinning Blades) and there are real big rooms full of them. Especially the pattern of Blade Sentries is not so obvious sometimes because the path of them can cross each other. " Like I said before. If they add a card game which you need to learn before getting your AC points, it would also take alot of content learning and you can guess that many people would complain about it. With your logic, a card game with gated content (like AC points) would be no problem in PoE, because the player needs to adept. I know you may have discussed this before, but it perfectly applies with your logic. |
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" My case was for a single trap hitting you repeatedly (standing still). For the moving traps the most important part is to keep moving (not along the trap though). If you sprint through with instant potions you can pretty much disregard these traps altogether provided you know when to use your potions (and aren't ES based, though it doesn't sound like that is your issue). The hangup is people get panicked and stop/double back which is what makes these lethal. As your are an HC player the instant flasks are a must anyways now all you need to do is learn some patterns. As for ES, I haven't tried it since their changes but it was definitely harder than life before. Doable to be sure but harder. " I think you are stretching but to be honest I would love a card game that say, leveled masters differently or allowed access to new masters/master crafts. Playing cards for access to more stat points or passives would be perfectly acceptable; hell even if I hated it and didn't play the card mini-game I would still think it was acceptable as I am generally open minded about these types of adaptations. I might be salty that content is getting added that I don't want to play but at most this would entail me not playing (I'v done that before). I think we actually made some headway here. Your issue seems to be more with the time investment necessary to learn the lab properly (and I do think it is necessary for enjoyment). I still think if you gave it a more fair assessment based on a larger sampling of lab runs that you would find it more enjoyable, but barring that I can understand some of your frustration. I hated my first (20) runs or so and only made them because I have about (20) some odd characters on HC that I wanted to ascend. Now I actually like the lab (on the right characters) and find it at least tolerable on any build. I do still think, regardless of how each of us feels, that GGG is not going to take AC out of the lab. |
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" I'm not even sure why they added traps to that map, they play no factor whatsoever in the map and don't increase the difficulty, I guess its just more there for the theme. " I feel that was well, and despite your attempt to try and explain how most people that come here to complain about the lab truly fail to recognize the "downsides" of removing the AC points or offing them elsewhere and how its not only detrimental to the design of the game, its detrimental to the future design of content being added to the game. Making up some crap about card games and comparing it to what we got with the lab, as if it were the same or even anywhere similar, just goes to prove how far some people are willing to reach to say its "doesn't belong" Just like you said many pages ago and I said, traps and ARPG games are not anything vastly new. Perhaps assembling them together as a piece of content\challenge is, thats a big stretch to go from here to a card game. I want people to enjoy as much as the game content as they can, personally I would give 2 shits about the challenges typically, but it turns out GGG made challenges that I wouldn't really be opposed to, if I keep my progression going I should get the monkey :D That being said I really wish people would try harder to enjoy the content and if after a good investment of time and energy they dislike it, so be it, at least they tried, unlike OP and many others that posted on this thread early on. One such party still active in this thread did not even complete the lab before jumping into the pile to complain. Not only that the uber lab adds another depth of interestingness to the game, which I doubt many here have done. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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" And how smart is it of a company that depends on MTX for its bread and butter, to keep putting more and more content that a large number of the playerbase despises, into the game? I would argue that while they're within their rights, they might be cutting their own throat. You know... like the guy who gets run over in the crosswalk because he refuses to yield to the truck. Yep, he was in the right. But he dead. Quoting Saltychipmunk:
...I look at the new act 5 boss where you have to hide behind the statues to survive the bullet hell and all I can think is... how the fuck are zombies going to survive that? They don't know what hiding is... they don't know what dodging is... they are morons. |
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