SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

In words you can understand:

If someone took a bite out of a hot dog and realised it tastes like shit, he doesn't have to eat the whole hot dog to confirm his aversion to it.

Since ya'll keep using food analogies, let's run with it.

Sure, you may not like a shit tasting hot dog but if there is nothing else to eat with no other options and you're hungry you're going to eat it. :P

I seriously dont know which side are you defending, but what you basically said, is that PoE was the hot dog, labyrinth is the shit sauce, and GGG is forcing it down our throats. Dudeeeeee! white knights' breaths stink!

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goetzjam wrote:

Except you've been around long enough to know this has ALWAYS been GGG's pholosophy, we aren't here to design the game, they aren't going to take the now blizzard approach on D3, we are here to play the game they design, feedback being important, but you need to keep in mind, they design the game and we play.

I can take the time to unpack that statement a bit 'play it your way'. I'm trying to be less wordy in my posts, but I knew this one had some baggage.

I'd start with the Passive Tree. That's the first thing some players see about the game, and one of the things GGG used to use (still uses?) to drive interest in the game. 'Look at all the things you can do! So many choices! None of them are the 'right' choice - only trade offs! Build it your way!'

So that's the foundation imo.

Then there is the fact that no matter your starting class, you can get to any other point on the tree if you want. (Coincidentally this also became less than 100% true via Ascendancy classes, but I'm not one to cry over that change).

So just as a starting point there are two reasons I'd say that historically it has been GGG's philosophy to let you play your way. I've seen people quoting in the Voltaxic QQ threads that GGG once said you can 'play overpowered builds in standard - we won't break them'. I have no idea if that's true (and again don't care) but if it's true it illustrates my point - that this does represent a shift in attitude by the devs, all of this stuff.

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goetzjam wrote:

If you think GGG forces you to play the lab, they really don't. If you dont want to do the lab, dont do it, I bet you can do all the content in the game just fine without it. If you dislike doing it but are willing to do it, then pay for a quick rush, which does mitigate most of the issues a lot of players have, especially because you have no issues paying off the traps, paying someone to do everything but actually blink arrow or wb\fd over traps, well you have to actually do SOMETHING to prove you are worthy of the points after all.

Many people were able to do the lab as ES based characters, was it more difficult, sure but all of the game's content isn't really designed to be equally as challenging.

No my take on the Lab has always been twofold:

(1) I'll admit that the gameplay is appealing to some, maybe even most, but I just don't like puzzles/traps. Like I don't even like puzzle games where the whole point is puzzles, it's just not for me.

(2) While there's nothing wrong with being innovative, the lab asks players to do things that are the opposite of what ARPGs ask you to do at their core. Not different, but actually opposite. This was covered in the OP.

I've never threatened to quit over the lab. I either outlevel it, pay for a rush, or at the start of the new league when the guild has 20-30 people on and people are doing lab frequently, hop in with one or two of them.

With knowledge comes the ability to do the lab in 15 minutes or less with even a bad build and one quicksilver flask. That plus the trial changes they're making, plus the other changes have softened my criticisms to the point that I don't care nearly as much anymore compared to release night.

Chris said on the podcast yesterday too that 'divisive content is good'. Although I disagree, suppose it's 100% true: gating non related progression/customization behind said divisive content was NOT a good idea.

Compare what you get from 6 (soon to be 8) Ascendancy points + 4 gear enchantments in terms of player power, feeling of progression, and customization to what you get from Atziri + Uber Atziri. Technically speaking nothing in this game is mandatory, but when you stop using the 'M' word in the binary sense, I think most people would agree that Ascendancy is much more 'mandatory' than SotVaal.

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Regulator wrote:

Dudeeeeee! white knights' breaths stink!

I dunno about this white knight stuff but I'll take stanky breath over being a hot dog racist. lol

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goetzjam wrote:

Dude he fucking said hotdog racist.

Like I can't even make this shit up.

I will take that as confirmation that you can imagine what i previously suggested.

Is he wrong / ignorant for not eating it and never recommending the place he got it from to anyone he knows?

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sidtherat wrote:

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miljan wrote:

normaly as you would want that content you add is liked by everyone of your community that plays the game, and was fan of the game for years now

this is where you are wrong. there are cases in business when you want part of your player/customer-base to LEAVE. pleasing everyone is pleasing noone - or turning your product to a shapeless blob of 'i want'/'i need'/'i like'. the lowest common denominator.

POE is dangerously close to mindless click-er game (you know, the game when you do NOTHING besides clicking very fast for 'rewards'): the build to be called 'good' has to do 300mXP in dried lake or clear gorges in ~1minute. anything else is thrash. speed meta, braindead meta, one-click meta.. click-click-click

Lab (both traps and the 'forced hardcore') looks like a change of pace. maybe a sign of things to come. if POE continues with this 'pooowaaaah creep' then it will soon reach numb-creating level of being simply a boring game: click click click (people competing for lvl100 die mostly of boredom and lack of concentration caused by it.. how 'fun' it is to play the same maps for hours on end just to reach some imaginary 'goal'?


if Lab forces people to quit (some people just say they 'quit', sometimes for months...) then maybe it is best for the game. if it is to evolve it has to shed some dead weight.

Tell me of business in game development where that is the case. It's illogical what you say. If you please everyone in your active playerbase that is playing your game for years, it means everyone will continue to play the game and not leave it. Especially in context we are talking here, as this suggestions made by community in this thread do not harm anyone of its playerbas. Casual will continue to play the lab, hardcore players will play the harder lab version without traps.

Also disagree with your second part of the post (well with whole post..). If you have problems with your game is too much a click fest, a way to fix that is not to implement totally different type of game in your game, is s puzzles or platformer or some other crap. A way to fix that is actually improving the AI of monsters, implementing more interesting skill they use, more positioning importance, better synergies, and less power creep. You know things that make arpg game fun. Not a frogger/mario game. And the most funny thing is the lab doesnt slow the game down, as players just rush through it anyway, so it even doesnt work how it should, as people dont want to play it that way.

The best for the game is not to go to arcade crap, we already have d3 for that, but even if it does, as it does, than that content that is arcade needs to be optional. They can even put a card mini game in PoE, I dont care as long as that content is optional, and if no core mechanic is gated behind it.

Anyway, nice that this thread is not dying, keep it up people.

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism

Actually this article is very enlightening. I suspect that egocentrism is more common in adults when evaluating the rather subjective perception of game play. There's an absolute refusal on the part of some here in this thread to even accept the possibility that someone could perceive the trap game play in a way differently from them. Some people liking the lab seem to accept that fact after an explanation but others just absolutely refuse to accept the possibility that others might perceive the same thing differently than they way they perceive it.

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As for you not liking the trap mechanics, can you go into more detail, like do you like any of the traps or perhaps what would you change about the traps (besides removing them)?

Okay, well where to start...

I prefer to plan a defensive char.... lets say a marauder with ~8k life, who may be bit slower than others.
This char is more likely to die during trap gameplay than a very fast char with 3-4k life.

Flasks don't heal % of life. But traps do % of life damage. That isn't logical at all. So my tank is a lot worse in those situations.

Also, I am a player, who prefers to play safe in hc. (don't like lvling a char, so i don't like ripping that char due to those damn traps) I play hc because the economy isn't that broke, not for the challenge. I like trading and farming with safe builds and in my opinion there should be an alternative to disable those traps. That's a new mechanic that a lot of people don't really like.

If I'd play sc, i would not care that much. I´d try, die and try again.... but having lvled a char to 80 and ripping at merc or even norm^^ lab due to traps isn't fun at all...

So rather than eating all GGG offers me, I go to the "Feedback and Suggestions" forum and post what I don't like and offer "some" alternatives.

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TheDeathX wrote:

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As for you not liking the trap mechanics, can you go into more detail, like do you like any of the traps or perhaps what would you change about the traps (besides removing them)?

Okay, well where to start...

I prefer to plan a defensive char.... lets say a marauder with ~8k life, who may be bit slower than others.
This char is more likely to die during trap gameplay than a very fast char with 3-4k life.

Flasks don't heal % of life. But traps do % of life damage. That isn't logical at all. So my tank is a lot worse in those situations.

While I think it is good design to have at least one trap do %-of-EHP damage, I think it's ludicrous that all of them do. It's the difference between thinking "hmm, my defenses won't help me against this, but will help me against those," and "my defenses won't help me."

Note that I'm advocating changing traps, not letting players just skip them.

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TheDeathX wrote:

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As for you not liking the trap mechanics, can you go into more detail, like do you like any of the traps or perhaps what would you change about the traps (besides removing them)?

Okay, well where to start...

I prefer to plan a defensive char.... lets say a marauder with ~8k life, who may be bit slower than others.
This char is more likely to die during trap gameplay than a very fast char with 3-4k life.

you know that it is untrue, do you?

first of - you should not get hit by traps. these are trivial to avoid and if you say about getting hit i immediately know that your personal experience with lab is minimal

second - your tanky marauder most probably has tools that limit the damage from traps (physical hits + physical DoT): endurance charges/basalt for DoTs and hits, armour for hits. so even if you decide to play recklessly and get hit the damage inflicted is most probably minimal

third - use leap slam/whirl blades (leap slam is better as it crosses gaps) and youll be fast enough

you have some standard characters, try it yourself and youll see that you are repeating others' opinions as your own without really understanding what you are saying (like many people in this thread). sure, your marauder wont be a lab speed runner (and it wont kill Uber) but even without looking at it i know it is capable of sub-10 minutes runs with no issues. if your life regen is high enough i think you can safely run it without flask. that huge difference 'knowing what to do' makes