SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

So Chris says it is only a small portion of players that are vocal about disliking the lab. Then he said that many people are happy to go through it and many people hate it. Safe to assume the same %?
Ziggys head almost fell off he was nodding so much, what a licker.

So the SoE stream yesterday was quite enlightening, and while i knew beforehand (from an email Wilson sent me "at the moment we haven't planned an alternative way for this to occur") what their opinion regarding reallocation is, it is interesting to see what C.Wilson told there.

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I) And a got a scent that a lot of the community dont like the labyrinth, this is a thing that i hear. While the people are vocal who dont like it, it is only a small portion of the players, many are happy to run through it as an interesting thing in the game, many people really hate it. This to me is not the end of the world. Its ok to have divisive content in the game, we dont want to water stuff down until everyone is "i guess ok" with it.

II) I get a lot of emails asking for a new method to get ascendancy points that bypasses the labyrinth. Maybe its something we do in the future, why we are not close to the idea, but its not something coming out in this expansion.

III) I like making content that people have opinions about, lot of people say just how much they love the gameplay in the labyrinth, how its great to see an Action RPG whith some areas where you have to be careful. I understand it doesnt go with the clear speed that we have at the moment, this is a slower paced content maybe for a slower paced path of exile, but it is still content that we like being in the game, and we are pretty proud of the labyrinth

- Chris Wilson, SoE podcast 53.

GGG is not the small company it used to be, they have grew in numbers and their policy/tactics are quite different. If something that divisive was implemented 2-3 years back it would have changed as soon as possible. The company has the size and gravitas to stick to their decision, unlike the PvP matter which is obviously very similar from a number of players point of view in regards to the total number of players (percentage-wise). But lets analyze a bit.

-I) They have the data and numbers and they know. He states that those who dont like it while vocal, are only a small portion only to contradict that by saying that "many players like it and many people hate it" in just the next few words. This could mean a few things. One of them might be that the vocal few are a small portion of the lab haters and not the total playerbase (a subgroup of the total haters side). He obviously wanted to promote and protect their project but had a misstep in the process. But i find it more worrying what he says next "its ok to have divisive content, we dont like to water it down to a "i guess ok" level for everyone. A similar divisive decision to loot allocation if any of you remembers, where they finally implemented options to keep everyone happy, since those said option DID NOT in any way affect their style of game play, since they were option. People could still play FFA loot if they chose to, in a game were GGG is proud to advertise as having a lot of choices to make. So that "i guess ok" level of enjoyment was obviously the right decision for them to make (have in mind that GGG). The bright side is they have at least admited that there is a a sizable proportion of the playerbase hating on the labyrinth, acceptance is always the first step.

-II) A very diplomatic answer regarding the real issue here and the one that this thread serves. The reallocation of ascendancy points. Its clear we wont be getting a new method in Prophecy, period. Its open to future discussion and suggestions/feedback if they are going to implement something like this in the coming updates/expansions. Its still the Ascendancy expansion, the labyrinth is the medium to reach the main focus of the expansion which is the ascendancy points/classes, its only natural as a company to keep promoting and sticking in your original idea/decision. Its up to us to give feedback and suggestions why this should change, and we will keep doing it until we achieve that.

-III) While sticking on the original plan to keep promoting their baby project, its something else that is worrying in the specific paragraph. Two things to be more specific. First is the statement
"the gameplay in the labyrinth", while subtle it says that yes the labyrinth gameplay is different from the core game and we know it, in a way admitting the arcade nature of it. Second is their secession from the actual game. The labyrinth does not go against the current meta, in contrast, it even goes a step further, people are running it as fast as possible to get the end rewards, not caring at all even to clear it. How GGG feels that they spend a ton of money and time for a content they unknowingly encourage players to skip? Talking about bad design and distance from the actual game. A sad state indeed.


So, its clear we wont be having an alternate way to ascend in the coming Prophecy league. Its not clear if we ever going to have an alternate way to ascend from whats been said. So where does this leaves us? Exactly where we were. We keep brainstorming, giving feedback and suggestions to why and how this situation can be improved so that we finally can have fun with the new toys. Keep in mind that we dont want the labyrinth removed (that is totally selfish), people should be able to enjoy that playstyle even if we dont like it. But we will keep on fighting to be able to enjoy the ascendancies without being forced to go through that playstyle.

I for once since i really enjoy the core game will just play without getting an ascendancy, will continue to update the OP and give new suggestions. I hope people can do the same and help with new alternative ways to ascend ideas.

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Turtledove wrote:

I thought of what might be a really nice alternative solution. It would be very easy to implement.

When the Labyrinth is first entered Vorici is there near the entrance. If you talk to him he says that his cousin works there and can be "persuaded" to disable the traps for a price. He would charge something relatively high say 20 chaos for normal, 40 chaos for cruel, 60 chaos for merciless, 120 chaos for the fourth level. It could of course be higher or lower whatever GGG decided. GGG could decide to charge less at the beginning of leagues when currency hasn't had a chance to accumulate yet.

Ill put that on the suggestions shortly. Seems to adress some issues in a similar way gibbousmoon's suggestion did and in the same spirit as the IX suggestion. If changed a bit it can be applied very safe without cheesing it.

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gathor wrote:

So Chris says it is only a small portion of players that are vocal about disliking the lab. Then he said that many people are happy to go through it and many people hate it. Safe to assume the same %?
Ziggys head almost fell off he was nodding so much, what a licker.

I really like this "licker" term you used. I assume it is being used differently from the definiton, "to pass the tongue over the surface of, as to moisten, taste, or eat". Urban dictionary has lesbian as a choice, I doubt that one as well? Sounds like it could be a another colorful term originating "down under"? Anyway, before I use it myself, could I please ask what it means? Maybe it's one of the other urban dictionary terms meaning zombie or something? I wouldn't want to use it improperly. Actually, I very much enjoy and respect ZiggyD and so if it is too negative then don't respond and destroy my little hero worship thing I got going on there. :-)

WTH GGG if you want to remove my entire post instead of just the word you disagreed with then just give me a probation for applying the knowledge i was imparted with in my previous post so that i don't have to deal with this nonsense anymore.

My thanks to the handful of logical players that concluded literally 100's of pages ago that GGG would not remove AC from the labyrinth. Special thanks to anyone specifically that got bashed or badmouthed by the OP for disagreeing with his failed premise.

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Turtledove wrote:

I thought of what might be a really nice alternative solution. It would be very easy to implement.

When the Labyrinth is first entered Vorici is there near the entrance. If you talk to him he says that his cousin works there and can be "persuaded" to disable the traps for a price. He would charge something relatively high say 20 chaos for normal, 40 chaos for cruel, 60 chaos for merciless, 120 chaos for the fourth level. It could of course be higher or lower whatever GGG decided. GGG could decide to charge less at the beginning of leagues when currency hasn't had a chance to accumulate yet.

Like that idea. So paying currency to disable traps is one option. Any other "payment" options?

- there are 8 labyrinth only items: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/The_Lord%27s_Labyrinth

Well those items are okay I´d say (except Winds of change = very nice)
What if you could use these as payment?
People farm the lab because of the enchantments right? Those people find lab only items and could sell them to other people, who prefer to do the lab "safer" and without traps.
So lets say Vorici appears at the beginning and asks for those items. In return he manages to disable the raps.

Norm lab (Area lvl 33): 8/8 lab items can be used:
Chitus' Needle(lvl 30);
Glitterdisc(lvl 27);
Izaro's Dilemma(lvl 68);
Izaro's Turmoil(no lvl req);
Spine of the First Claimant(lvl 20);
Viper's Scales(lvl 28);
Winds of Change (lvl 47);
Xirgil's Crank (lvl 28)

Cruel lab (Area lvl 55): 3/8 lab items can be used:
Izaro's Dilemma(lvl 68);
Izaro's Turmoil(no lvl req);
Winds of Change (lvl 47);

Merc lab (Area lvl 68): 2/8 lab items can be used:
Izaro's Dilemma(lvl 68);
Izaro's Turmoil(no lvl req);

Über lab: not sure about this one.

I think this solution is quite fair. People who farm the lab or just want to get some "lab only uniques" (maybe with an mf char - why should some1 farm the lab with an mf char?) get rewarded for doing so. And people who prefer to take less risk, have to buy those items. The price of these items will rise and that items have an alternative use.
Maybe 1 or 2 of the normal lab items should also be applied to cruel and Winds of Change to merc lab.

If Izaro's Turmoil could be used for über lab, then the price will be very high^^

so this is finally settled and could be put to rest but some people just do not get it

this is a good example how NOT to put your point accross: hyperbole, emotions (bordering hysteria), riddiculung opponents (ie: everyone that does not agree), pulling 'arguments' out of ...

but i can see that after being shown the door you still want to spoil the party?

given how little time Chris talked about lab it is clear that they do not see it as a problem and id the vocal minority is unsatisfied - he can live with it (insert Shrek movie quote of risks he is willing to take)

note: ive leveled two chars since and getting both trials and labs is stremlined into the leveling process pretty well so most likely it does not affect new players. people that are willing to play without ascending (cannot verify due to private profile..) just because. well. have fun i guess.

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sidtherat wrote:

then GGG shows you a middle finger by ADDING a 4th lab and removing Trials (not labs! read the announcement again to see what REALLY changes in next patch)

do not like it? move on. but at this point you are just reiterating the same bs over and over again clutching at straws and completely ignoring simple fact: GGG sees this 'issue' differently and your 'petitions' were ignored

Well *ggg* goes peddle with stuff like: "We are a game designer who listen to their community". I have heard, that they even open a forum with a feedback section (... even if they prefer to talk trough *reddit* instead trough their own forum ...lol). So that someone gives some feedback or wishes seems okay for me.

But the rest of your statement summarizes it quite well. I had returned for the upcomming big patch, I see the middlefinger and I avoid even to reinstall poe.

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sidtherat wrote:

so this is finally settled and could be put to rest but some people just do not get it

this is a good example how NOT to put your point accross: hyperbole, emotions (bordering hysteria), riddiculung opponents (ie: everyone that does not agree), pulling 'arguments' out of ...

but i can see that after being shown the door you still want to spoil the party?

given how little time Chris talked about lab it is clear that they do not see it as a problem and id the vocal minority is unsatisfied - he can live with it (insert Shrek movie quote of risks he is willing to take)

note: ive leveled two chars since and getting both trials and labs is stremlined into the leveling process pretty well so most likely it does not affect new players. people that are willing to play without ascending (cannot verify due to private profile..) just because. well. have fun i guess.

We have the vocal minority, but a lot of people don't like and stay silent too.

I have a friend that hate the lab too, but he stills plays the game and don't go to any community to talk about it. He basically quietly go trough this BS.

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Chris talked like dividing the community was a good think, but is something really bad to happen. Making a bunch of people talk that the game is terrible for possible new player and losing players too is really bad. And the silent players that hate the lab and will not buy stuff anymore because they are frustrated.

They made a decision and don't want to go back, they probably will only change if they really feel the impact in the pocket. I am making sure that I will never come back to the game and talking to everyone that it's not worth playing at its current state.

sorry for my england.

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GGG is not the small company it used to be, they have grew in numbers and their policy/tactics are quite different. If something that divisive was implemented 2-3 years back it would have changed as soon as possible. The company has the size and gravitas to stick to their decision, unlike the PvP matter which is obviously very similar from a number of players point of view in regards to the total number of players (percentage-wise). But lets analyze a bit.

I actually disagree, assuming of course the same % of people that are dissatisfied now were then they may actually even be inclined to go one step further and say we will continue to monitor feedback and make adjustments if needed, but at this time there is no change planned.

If it was the same raw amount of people, then idk, but given the fact that the population of the game has changed significantly over the course of the years I don't know if its fair to compare this to the pvp matter.

For example the pvp patch literally only benefited PvP players, the largest issue with the "pvp patch" wasn't actually that it was the "main focus" of the patch, it was that the temp leagues that came out with it weren't that great. The other issue is that people thought that GGG was balancing main pve gameplay stuff based on pvp (aka block), but that simply wasn't the case. To me I see no issue with running events and having the seasons, they already did the hard work and allowing people to participate later in the league might keep people interested for longer. The issue comes with the rewards (aka art), which I guess is fair to say it simply isn't worth the investment there, considering the comments Chris made regarding racing.

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-I) They have the data and numbers and they know. He states that those who dont like it while vocal, are only a small portion only to contradict that by saying that "many players like it and many people hate it" in just the next few words. This could mean a few things. One of them might be that the vocal few are a small portion of the lab haters and not the total playerbase (a subgroup of the total haters side). He obviously wanted to promote and protect their project but had a misstep in the process. But i find it more worrying what he says next "its ok to have divisive content, we dont like to water it down to a "i guess ok" level for everyone. A similar divisive decision to loot allocation if any of you remembers, where they finally implemented options to keep everyone happy, since those said option DID NOT in any way affect their style of game play, since they were option. People could still play FFA loot if they chose to, in a game were GGG is proud to advertise as having a lot of choices to make. So that "i guess ok" level of enjoyment was obviously the right decision for them to make (have in mind that GGG). The bright side is they have at least admited that there is a a sizable proportion of the playerbase hating on the labyrinth, acceptance is always the first step.

Tin foil hat much. Lets interpret this without the hat. Many can just mean a number of people have complained about it, he obviously hasn't polled the playerbase or gotten emails from a good representation of people for you to interpret his statements that many = majority.

In regards to comparing it to the loot allocation stance, its really a different matter. Think about it loot in an ARPG game is very important, its probably one of the top 3 things in an ARPG game, it either makes it or breaks it, so by allowing people to not have allocation (back then) it was a big deal, given the delay that items had an the pure amount of clutter that was on the screen before loot filters. If GGG had implemented loot filters back then, they wouldn't have had to change the allocation thing. See the problem can have more then one solution, they choose the path of least resistance back then, but it seems clear that GGG doesn't want to water down game content (like I said like 50 pages ago I bet) just to stop people from quitting or perhaps returning, because it can upset players (like myself) that they would comprise game design and water down the content.

They never admit that its "sizeable" only that an amount of players don't like the lab, stop with your tin foil hat and read it as if you were me or just read what my response is and you will be able to interpret his statements (from the othersides point of view)

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-II) A very diplomatic answer regarding the real issue here and the one that this thread serves. The reallocation of ascendancy points. Its clear we wont be getting a new method in Prophecy, period. Its open to future discussion and suggestions/feedback if they are going to implement something like this in the coming updates/expansions. Its still the Ascendancy expansion, the labyrinth is the medium to reach the main focus of the expansion which is the ascendancy points/classes, its only natural as a company to keep promoting and sticking in your original idea/decision. Its up to us to give feedback and suggestions why this should change, and we will keep doing it until we achieve that.

That last part has me worried. At what point are you going to give up or let it be then? I mean really what will it take for you to let it go for some time, I don't care to check which leagues you play in, but given the new streamlined trials and the statements I've made about how easy it is to actually DO the lab, it really shouldn't stop you from playing the game and enjoying all the other aspects that you do. You never really gave me an answer about if it is or isn't acceptable to allow the first 6 points to have access outside the lab, but the last 2 (for the 8) to be map only\lab only possible, because it seems to me, even the lab haters are split on their views on this particular issue.

As for it still being ascendancy expansion, yup it is, so it is logical that they don't sway their stance on the AC point thing, however that being said you have to understand its a significant investment of time and resources to make changes to get AC points outside of the lab, which is why I said o idk like 40 pages ago you should focus your topic (if you want an actual change) to be how to either make the lab more enjoyable or like you said some way to make the traps avoidable, because it would likely be far easier to make that change, then anything else except maybe the npc thing outside the lab, but honestly thats a joke and I bet GGG agrees.

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-III) While sticking on the original plan to keep promoting their baby project, its something else that is worrying in the specific paragraph. Two things to be more specific. First is the statement
"the gameplay in the labyrinth", while subtle it says that yes the labyrinth gameplay is different from the core game and we know it, in a way admitting the arcade nature of it. Second is their secession from the actual game. The labyrinth does not go against the current meta, in contrast, it even goes a step further, people are running it as fast as possible to get the end rewards, not caring at all even to clear it. How GGG feels that they spend a ton of money and time for a content they unknowingly encourage players to skip? Talking about bad design and distance from the actual game. A sad state indeed.

Continuously bashing the dev's design isn't going to help you in achieving your goal. Its one thing to dislike or hate a change to the game, its another thing to insult the devs or the design. They know the lab is different then the rest of the game, they designed it to be that way if you remember the podcast before when Chris was on talking about the lab, they wanted players to have the thrill of hardcore (kinda) in a softcore environment, you know the whole you leave you start over thing, you die you start over.

Second they designed the lab in such a way, the best way to actually play it (most of the time) is by spending as little time doing it as possible, this goes the same for basically everything else in the game. So in part you are right that it does not really go against the current meta, but wrong in the part that it goes a step further, its just different because this challenge you don't kill stuff along the way you really just avoid the traps and (occasional monster), seeing as there really isn't a reward for killing the monsters along the way (except flask charges), unlike the rest of the game where you do want to kill for xp\loot\ect.

The proof of this whole speed running the lab thing is that they designed, from the start a leaderboard system to race in. Which means they know that people are going to rush thru it, if not to compete with them to realize that aside from the occasional this or that in the lab (which is shared daily on reddit) people will rush to ascend or get enchantments.


@HeliaXDemoN

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I am making sure that I will never come back to the game and talking to everyone that it's not worth playing at its current state.

Thats quite ignorant of you, considering you have 1 ascended character and it looks like you've only done the lab once on it. You hardly have the ability to pass judgement with a knowledgeable and in-depth experience of the lab. I think this is the prime example of people that dislike the lab or perhaps dislike the lab, because they don't know any better. If you knew how to navigate or play the lab, you might actually enjoy it but because you have put forth no effort in doing so, we won't know.

The bad part is that you are discouraging players or potential players from playing this game, based on something you don't like that you have very little experience with, if you want to talk about a really bad thing, its more when players quit and take down any chances of people that would otherwise try the game, just because you had 1 bad experience with something that not only is a small fraction of what you "have to do" as a player but something you again have basically no experience with.

Quite concerning to me that this behavior is coming from someone that has been playing this game for so long, willing to throw in the towel for reasons pretty much unknown to me.