Quitting PoE after years due to Labyrinth System

Just in case you don't know the dentition of skill:

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the ability to do something well

If you have max MS and enough life regen and ability to use pots its true you can run thru it and typically not care about the skill aspect. But timings for boss fight is something that requires more then the zerg method.

The way to remove the necessity of skill or at least reduce the impact that its required is by overleveling. This is a common practice in hardcore and the nature of you only have 1 try "per death" means that HC\SC players have to play this mechanic almost identical. One issue is people honestly believe that playing SC should be a completely different experience then playing hardcore, the thing is GGG is clearly pushing for that more and more not to be the case. We no longer have separate leagues, we no longer have hc\sc only uniques the only difference now is that hardcore players get removed from the league upon death and SC players don't.

People have made suggestions like adding WP or not losing all the progress on death, I'm sitting here thinking why on earth would they change the lab, which was meant to test either a) skill or b) determination?

You REALLY love the white knight thing. We aren't at least I'm not defending GGG I'm expressing my opinion of the situation. GGG doesn't need my help or anyone elses to defend themselves as they are a profitable company making a great game.

Except that isn't true and you know it, a lot of the unique jewels manipulate the passive tree in a substantial way. Not only that its the fact you don't have to repeat it (more then 3 times) per character that means even if you don't have fun doing it, it is really not that big of a deal. I spend more time doing master missions then I every really want to do, is it optional, I guess, but not having the ability to improve your items, much like not having the ability to improve your character via ascendancy means you do technically "handicap" yourself.

Also technically awakening added the mines 2 skill point, thats "technically" passive tree points.

GGG can and will discover what is best for the game, overall the amount of threads here is just because people feel like they can design a system better then the devs that spent months on it.

With every expansion they have the ability to alienate the playerbase to introduce new things into the game. The vaal expansion made leveled\quality gems worth much less, it made clean uniques in some circumstances worth more, it make some items much more powerful with good corruptions. The masters expansion completely changed the value of jewelry, it changed tons of economical aspects and changed mapping significantly, not only that it was the first time people could get previous league specific items.

Do you think that all the players playing now enjoy every aspect of those expansions, absolutely not you'd be one of the most clueless people if you believe that. But they have learned over time to mitigate the downside or what they don't like because in the end every single expansion has really benefited the playerbase and game as whole.

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And izaro is dangerous pretty much exclusively to melee and low hp ranged builds. if you need someone to run you through the laby just to progress, then just ask. it is a pretty well established strategy to skip the lab until you complete a difficulty and then come back to it later.

Actually I think hes quite easy as a melee character you have phys mitigation and can take his hits and he doesn't charge if you are in melee, the only thing is the green thing at his feet in the last phase will teleport you into traps, which is easily dodgeable. Melee typically has higher life and regen as well.

I agree that people should skip the lab and come back to it most classes dont have a lot to gain from just 2 points, so ideally doing normal and cruel back to back will spike your power and it will feel more rewarding IMO.

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But what if we could get the ascendancy points just from completing the difficulty? What if they were optional for those that don't care for them. Seems like that would be the best of both worlds - play how you like. Just buff the drops in the Labyrinth and move Ascendancy out from it.

Because it removes basically one of the largest reasons to do the lab? Because it would cheapen the expansion?

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to extending the just complete merciless lab to get all 6 points thing to all current and future characters thing. I also wouldn't be opposed to removing the need to complete the trials if lets say you've killed malachai in that difficulty or something. But as for removing the ascendancy points from the lab and just giving them out, naw that just isn't acceptable IMO.


"play how you like"

That hasn't been really up to the player in a very long time. I can't map the way I used to, I can't skip act 4 (because back in the day it wasnt even there).

Sometimes in life, games, ect you have to do 1 thing you don't like in order to gain the benefit of what the provides.

This is exactly what GGG should do: allow the Labyrinth system to be an option, but not a requirement for Ascendancy access/points. The problem here is the Labyrinth is forcing hardcore play style on normal players (which GGG has even admitted!) who do not want it, yet opting out of this new hardcore play style prevents access to new game features (this is the big mistake GGG made). If somebody wants to complete the labyrinth to get the points earlier, let them. But if not, just award points for killing Malachai for each difficulty level -- or something along those lines -- perhaps even tie point awarding to map difficulty completion. Problem solved. This approach allows those who want to run the Labyrinth to get access to the Ascension tree sooner, and those who do not can still pursue ascendancy at a slower, but more casual pace.

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goetzjam wrote:

Because it removes basically one of the largest reasons to do the lab? Because it would cheapen the expansion?

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to extending the just complete merciless lab to get all 6 points thing to all current and future characters thing. I also wouldn't be opposed to removing the need to complete the trials if lets say you've killed malachai in that difficulty or something. But as for removing the ascendancy points from the lab and just giving them out, naw that just isn't acceptable IMO.


"play how you like"

That hasn't been really up to the player in a very long time. I can't map the way I used to, I can't skip act 4 (because back in the day it wasnt even there).

Sometimes in life, games, ect you have to do 1 thing you don't like in order to gain the benefit of what the provides.

Would not cheapen this expansion to put those points behind Malachai's back instead, 2 from each difficulty level, why would it cheapen this? Still would have labyrinth, still would be rewarded to run it (enchantments).

Problem is, for those more casual players, this is now huge part of gameplay... for me example, if wish work around with all my chars again, would need some 2 weeks atleast (most likely 4-5 due to dc's and lag deaths) to run only the points I need, to re-use my chars... Not because too hard, only because can use 1-2 hours a day, and is not enough to complete it. Not because hard or challenging, only because too long, and game unstable. Is propably different if can use several hours a day to this, but for many, this just now sucks.

Cannot skip killing Hillock either, on act 1 normal Coast, but as is with Malachai, and Hillock also, those are similiar things people are used to do in this... And this may sound odd, but people have played this I think mostly because of things that are in this game, not because of things that have NOT being in this game. What is causing bad feelings now, is one must now use plenty of time to something, that feels completely different than PoE used to feel like. It is the must-do concept of labyrinth that bothers, not the fact it's there.

And yes, sometimes in life must do things that do not feel fun. Games atleast for most, is about entertainment... not about something "that has to be done". People are not in a way "forced" to do anything in games. is maybe a bit twisted to even mix those things... meaning "doing something that is not fun, as entertainment". This is very different from other things in life, I think. Can compare it to watching TV, in a way... not forced to do it, if program now bad, even though last one was good... then will switch channel, that's all. This will more likely only make many people do other stuff now, to entertain themselves, instead of playing this. But cannot compare to "real" life issues, like some sickness or something, that must deal with.

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Mooginator wrote:

This is exactly what GGG should do: allow the Labyrinth system to be an option, but not a requirement for Ascendancy access/points. The problem here is the Labyrinth is forcing hardcore play style on normal players (which GGG has even admitted!) who do not want it, yet opting out of this new hardcore play style prevents access to new game features (this is the big mistake GGG made). If somebody wants to complete the labyrinth to get the points earlier, let them. But if not, just award points for killing Malachai for each difficulty level -- or something along those lines -- perhaps even tie point awarding to map difficulty completion. Problem solved. This approach allows those who want to run the Labyrinth to get access to the Ascension tree sooner, and those who do not can still pursue ascendancy at a slower, but more casual pace.

No


You have to do Malachai in order to progress he already provides you a reward, don't just throw something on an act boss because you wanna QQ that you have to run the lab to get the bonus power. I don't care if you don't find it fun, it removes the whole idea of giving players additional power by proving they can beat a boss. Is this new and somewhat crazy idea for PoE sure, is it something that needs to be thrown out because players are going to quit over it, no let them quit like previous players have quit from other expansions, replace them with players that like the expansion and you are all set.


This isn't a casual ARPG. D3 is out there go play that casual ARPG game.


Never in the history of this game have they added the expansion's main focus into something and just said you know what guys you are so casual lets just give this to you for doing something you already do or because I know you don't have fun doing it.


Imagine if I complained and got all my masters to level 7 for free because I was a casual player, I only get it if I kill malachai on merciless though, thats fair that I don't have to grind the missions right?


As soon as I knew that GGG was having this lab as a requirement in order to gain the benefit I knew people would QQ over it because they feel entitled to something they aren't. Complete the trials, lab and repeat 3 times on your characters and move on with your life.

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Would not cheapen this expansion to put 2 points behind Malachai's back instead, 2 from each difficulty level, why would it cheapen this? Still would have labyrinth, still would be rewarded to run it (enchantments).

Because no one would run normal and cruel labs EVER. Not only that if its added to malachai then people will kill him in merciless and just get carried rather then risk their character, time, effort, whatever to run thru and get the benefit themselves. The enchantments while cool aren't the reason why people run the lab the first time, without being "forced" to run the lab the first time players won't get the cool enchantments and WANT to do the lab other times.

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Problem is, for those more casual players, this is now huge part of gameplay... for me example, if wish work around with all my chars again, would need some 2 weeks atleast (most likely 4-5 due to dc's and lag deaths) to run only the points I need, to re-use my chars... Not because too hard, only because can use 1-2 hours a day, and is not enough to complete it. Not because hard or challenging, only because too long, and game unstable. Is propably different if can use several hours a day to this, but for many, this just now sucks.

Except they specifically said all current perm league characters only have to run thru it once when they patch that in. Nothing should EVER be done in this game to directly cater to "casual" players that just code word for lets cheapen the experience for others (who funny enough support the game much more then casual players)

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Cannot skip killing Hillock either, on act 1 normal Coast, but as is with Malachai, and Hillock also, those are similiar things people are used to do in this... And this may sound odd, but people have played this I think mostly because of things that are in this game, not because of things that have NOT being in this game. What is causing bad feelings now, is one must now use plenty of time to something, that feels completely different than PoE used to feel like. It is the must-do concept of labyrinth that bothers, not the fact it's there.

You must do a lot of shit in PoE, adding 1 more thing isn't that big of a deal. They can reduce the must do by removing the need to do trials after first character in the league completes them or some other form, but the labs should 100% remain the only way to get the ascendancy points.

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And yes, sometimes in life must do things that do not feel fun. Games atleast for most, is about entertainment... not about something "that has to be done". People are not in a way "forced" to do anything in games. is maybe a bit twisted to even mix those things... meaning "doing something that is not fun, as entertainment". This is very different from other things in life, I think. Can compare it to watching TV, in a way... not forced to do it, if program now bad, even though last one was good... then will switch channel, that's all. This will more likely only make many people do other stuff now, to entertain themselves, instead of playing this. But cannot compare to "real" life issues, like some sickness or something, that must deal with.

I have to level characters before I can have fun in endgame, this is just another part added in the leveling process. Does that part of it suck yes, but if its "free" or you get it for doing something you have to or would already do its not really expansion content but just free power, thats unacceptable.

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goetzjam wrote:

You must do a lot of shit in PoE, adding 1 more thing isn't that big of a deal.

nothing to add further xD

Peace,

-kcstar-

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kcstar wrote:

Dude, you answered most of your question yourself :>
In other words... do the challenge when it's no challenge ^^

Peace,

-kcstar-

And there is a problem with that ... where?

Haven't played any Labyrinth stuff, don't think I ever will.

I played through the first trial in normal, and it brought to mind memories of childhood days playing the NES with my kid brother in the 1980's.

"Can I have a go?"

"Yea sure in a minute bro..."

And like an hour later I'd get to the tedious moving platform level, or the trap and lever level, and then finally I'd hand him the controller, grab my BMX and Sony Cassette Walkman and ride to the park listening to Metallica.

I got to the ascendancy trial, took one look at the circular-saw blades on rails and the spikes coming up out of the floor and grabbed my metaphorical BMX.

Been there, done that, bought the day-glo Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles t-shirt. Didn't like it a quarter of a century ago, don't like it now.

So I'm just not going to do it. I don't even care about ascendancy point, I don't need them. I've transcended ascendancy. They're like a bunch of other stuff in this game that you think you need but you really don't. I'm just going to play without it.

That said, I can see why some people might feel inclined to ride into the sunset, and it's sad, because the root cause is something that was always hackneyed, cliché, lazy game design, and always shit.

Two things GGG should never, ever do:
1. Give Ascendancy points to anyone for anything other than beating the Labyrinth (reward only those who complete optional content)
2. Require Ascendancy points to complete endgame content, rebalance content around Ascendancy classes, etc. (ensure content remains optional)

So far, they've done neither. May it remain that way.

If you want Knights of the Round, it's time to hone your chocobo racing skills. Deal with it.

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goetzjam wrote:

You must do a lot of shit in PoE, adding 1 more thing isn't that big of a deal. They can reduce the must do by removing the need to do trials after first character in the league completes them or some other form, but the labs should 100% remain the only way to get the ascendancy points.

I have to level characters before I can have fun in endgame, this is just another part added in the leveling process. Does that part of it suck yes, but if its "free" or you get it for doing something you have to or would already do its not really expansion content but just free power, thats unacceptable.

Thing is, there is nothing me or You "must" do in any game, not in PoE either. I only do something, if feeling it's entertaining. And for first time in 2,5 years of this, skipping something I do not wish to do in this (not the first or only thing), ruins the rest of it. Because now I will miss a lot, will miss one of core features on chars. And not so delighted, since was earlier pretty much best game so far I have played. Very very surprised by this patch, and how different this is now. If PoE had been such trap dodging thingy earlier, would not had installed it in the first place.

And no, You do not need to level characters after long time playing this game, if wish to have some end-game fun. Can use some old char, just respec it. I'm not a huge fan of leveling phase of char anymore either, done it many many times already... is reason why I have already some time now, mostly been playing around with respecced old chars I have. Not possible now, unless using time a lot on something that does not feel fun at all, not one bit. I'd never ever install a game that is about some trap dodging... not interested in such. Totally different type of gameplay was for me the reason to play this.

Surely, PoE not all about lab now, but for me, and time I can put into this per day, would mean following next weeks. And even if I've been casual player compared to some, I do have used a lot more $$$ to this, than most of new games even cost. Also more casual players do support good work, as someone hinted, is not the case. Thinking this was in overall not good patch for GGG either. Will be losing many customers if have thick skulls about this.

Anyways, problem solved for now: installing Grim Dawn atm :)

Will check up later on PoE, if is then entertaining to play it, maybe will do it then again.
Best wishes to everyone, let RNGesus smile on You all! :)