The Chisel Bubble: Using currency to roll maps, vs buying maps

TL;DR

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Finally, in order for the value of those drops to be equal to the value of the Alch, the map itself needs to be worth...
Low tier: 1/0.295 = 3.39 Alchs (meaning: never Alch low tier)
Mid tier: 1/0.354 = 2.82 Alchs (so if the map isn't worth at least 3 Alchs, do not Alch it)
Top tier: 1/0.369 = 2.71 Alchs (so Alch all of your top tier maps)
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Top tier: 1.6969/1.6469 = 1.304; 1/.0304 = 32.9; so map + 1 Alch > 32.9 Chisels to be worth it
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Nephalim wrote:

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As reference for SC - the prices of T12 + varies a lot simply because it's hard to find someone with more than a few:
T7(74): .5C
T8(75): 1C
T9(76): 2C
T10(77): 4C
T11(78): 7C
T12(79): 12C
T13(80): 20C
T14(81): 40C
T15(82): 1ex

from: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1581803

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KorgothBG wrote:

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IIR/IIQ (109%/43% + 50%/25% from my Windripper)
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The average exalt value of the looted orbs per 100 runs is 7,41 ex ( went up with 0,27 from 150 to 200 runs )
The average exalt value of the looted orbs per hour is 0.69 ( went up with 0,01 from 150 to 200 runs )
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with ex:chaos 65:1 its near 5 chaos yieald per map when alching all. taking into consideration that IIQ from windripper is ~33% then- average yield is 5/1,33~4 (chaos recipe included)

* This means that its economic to run maps lower than T10; (although it should be 1 or 3 tier higher because of map drops which are also valuable, without good data its hard to say)
* Its not worth combining maps via vendor recipe, since prices are not x3 per tier up (but its somewhere x2), better sell lower and buy higher.
* Its worth alching all maps since according to ScrotieMcB average multiplicative drop increase is 33% (alching versus transmuting). (4 chaos return from map)/(1,33 alch/trans)=3 chaos orbs, this 3 chaos orbs are return from transmuted map, so alching adds additional 1 chaos orb (and raises return to 4), and 1 chaos is more worth than 1 alch. Although its rough calculation since IIR was not taken into account.

You are welcome to correct those conclusions, since they horribly rough :)

Forum topic advocating the extensive use of poe.xy and procurement instead of actually playing the game, trading 1c instead of looting it. well played.

A point where do you get your fun then? It's a known fact tho, EVERYBODY in my guild was doing similar calculations when I was playing. You are not factoring Clearspeed either and the MF factor. Anybody would sac few alch an hour to signficantly improve the loot rates hence it's almost worthless anyway.

I want to point out that alch are worthless, chaos orbs do not worth much. If people stop alching maps it will have repercussions. I played 2weeks talisman, I've 140ish alch already, not factoring those I sold at very low costs to mates for chaos I couldn't care less about(basically stacking meaninglessly).

And for an end note, have you ever eard of orb of chances on low tier maps? For example chancing maps that drop high value div cards or high value unique variance(Reef for example is great chancing, vaal p too as it's easy to boss run and can drop a pretty decent card) and chisel recipe anyway when you have shitty results?

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Char1983 wrote:

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Galtrovan wrote:

Yes, you will have lucky streaks, and unlucky streaks, but at that tier and solo, on average... T7+ is unsustainable from map drops.

That is just not true. I do really not like the map drop system, even though I had a few good days lately. But T7+ is sustainable with just alch-and-go on T7+, and chisel-alch on T10+. You might have to invest a bit more into the T12+ maps, and it might take a while. But right now, my T7+ map stash barely contains any T7s or T8s, and I started up-vendoring my T9s.

Says the person with zero completed challenges (Do you play standard?). And why does your T7+ map stash barely have any T7s or T8s? Couldn't sustain just by playing most likely.

Only reason I have any T7s, T8s, and T9s in my stash... I didn't run them after I found them. In order words, they were either found while forced to slum 5's and 6's trying to rebuild a T7+ pool or were found in T10+ maps that I had to outright buy from players using poe.trade.

All the T7 to T9 I ran, and I mean every single one of them, never dropped anything higher than a T9, ever. I always ran completely out them... always forced back to T5 and T6... which is BS in my book.

As to the other poster regarding the difference between map drops playing solo vs map drops playing in a party... is that a real question?

There is no comparing. Play T7 to T9 solo, you will have to buy T7+, period. You aren't going to sustain them by simply playing the game, barring falling back and rebuilding. On the other hand, play T7 to T9 in a party, while all the map drops go to the host, the map drops are plentiful to point of being guaranteed (on average) that whatever tier you host (T7 to T9), that tier will drop in the map... i.e. in a party these are sustainable without having to buy them.

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Galtrovan wrote:

Says the person with zero completed challenges (Do you play standard?). And why does your T7+ map stash barely have any T7s or T8s? Couldn't sustain just by playing most likely.

Yeah, I play standard. The reason why I basically have no T7s and T8s in my stash is that I vendor them up when there is no space left. The space is filled with T9s, T10s and T11s mostly, with a few T12-T15 maps as well.

I recently sold a bunch of maps though (about 13 Springs and 20 Gorges). I did not buy maps... maybe one or two, not sure. I started with buying a pool of 40 T8s when 2.0 hit.

I doubt that map drops work significantly different on Talisman. I have to admit though that I hit a lucky streak recently, and it can be that T7s are unsustainable for longer amounts of time because of the extreme streakiness of the map system (check this thread if you are interested in some more mathematical details). I have not played a map under T10 in a while. I fully expect to get less lucky in the future, but T8s are, on average, certainly sustainable.


EDIT: BTW, I play solo.

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Entropic_Fire wrote:

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Galtrovan wrote:

As to the other poster regarding the difference between map drops playing solo vs map drops playing in a party... is that a real question?

There is no comparing. Play T7 to T9 solo, you will have to buy T7+, period. You aren't going to sustain them by simply playing the game, barring falling back and rebuilding. On the other hand, play T7 to T9 in a party, while all the map drops go to the host, the map drops are plentiful to point of being guaranteed (on average) that whatever tier you host (T7 to T9), that tier will drop in the map... i.e. in a party these are sustainable without having to buy them.

I don't mean to be rude, but you're extremely misinformed.

Everything I said is a statement of fact. I started the league with nothing. I played solo to lower 80's. The drops were the drops, period. Partied up for maps to level 90. Again, the drops were the drops, period.

You cannot tell me I'm wrong or misinformed. Facts are facts.

Your experience could be different than mine, because RNG, but my facts are still facts. And why do you think there are still a bazillion threads on this forum with people complaining that the map drops are still BS, including me, and others, like you, seem to think they are fine, and sustainable.

I'm sick and tired of not being able to move up the map tiers without buying maps or playing in parties, but there is no alternative unless I want to accept always being relegated back to sub T7's and rebuilding.

You're forgetting the opportunity cost of trading. Unless you can get the maps in bulk, the time spent trading is often worth more than the few alchs you save.

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Or is the question: is it better to run my single alched map, or run the 2 blue maps, for the same price? In that case indeed the answer is independent of the map drop rate, but unless I’m missing something, with the second map you have the equivalent of +100% quantity, vs +30 or 40% for the single yellow, so the answer is relatively obvious. If you don’t take time into account, I mean. As already pointed out above, certainly the most relevant factor here is how you value your time vs your currency.

I don't think that would make sense. The question that makes sense is whether you get more back than what you invest in the map. Because if you do, you can just buy the second map for an alch after running the first.

At this point in time I have decided to just chance my maps and let rngesus decide.

Chisel and alch is only for when I want to progress in the atlas. Still doesn't pay off most of the time of course.

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Procelot wrote:

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Or is the question: is it better to run my single alched map, or run the 2 blue maps, for the same price? In that case indeed the answer is independent of the map drop rate, but unless I’m missing something, with the second map you have the equivalent of +100% quantity, vs +30 or 40% for the single yellow, so the answer is relatively obvious. If you don’t take time into account, I mean. As already pointed out above, certainly the most relevant factor here is how you value your time vs your currency.

I don't think that would make sense. The question that makes sense is whether you get more back than what you invest in the map. Because if you do, you can just buy the second map for an alch after running the first.

Have you no respect for the dead?

you monster