Donald Trump

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NeroNoah wrote:

There are two reactions to things like refugees: blind acceptation (on the left mostly) and blind rejection. The proper way to do this is to educate them and integrate them to the west. They could be the key to secularizing middle east in the future. Merely rejecting them is just waiting for the Crusades in some decades. Merely accepting them means having consequences in the future (it will be awful, but let's be fair: they haven't done as much damage even with all the terrorist attacks combined and the poor economic adaptation.

I agree with most of that.

"[...]Article 16a of the Basic Law grants victims of political persecution an individual right of asylum. The fundamental right of asylum thus has high priority and expresses Germany’s willingness to fulfil its historical and humanitarian obligation to admit refugees.[...]"

This is a quote from the German ministry of the interior, the "basic law" is our constitution.
Every single person that is a victim of political persecution has the right of Asylum here.

http://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Migration-Integration/Asylum-Refugee-Protection/asylum-refugee-protection_node.html;jsessionid=1DE441F722CEFE13BB563EE52A2833F7.2_cid295

Our current chancellor is a conservative, and - hopefully - she does not have plans to change our constitution. It´s not about having no cultural identity in Germany, our history just has this influence on our self-conception, then again I´m not that naive to think that could never change depending on wealth, security, stability(as stated in my last post). The EU is working on plans to spread refugees over Europe instead of concentrating them in a few countries.
Now refugees (of course) want to live in the economically most successful countries( Germany more than Italy or France ). Also Sweden has a very high percentage of refugees. We are facing a problem here with the east of Europe. Countries that belonged to the Warsaw pact, let´s say it short, they used to be under the control of the Soviet Union, and people were only allowed to travel within the Warsaw pact, so they never spend their holidays in Arabic countries like - probably(because it´s cheap holidays in Egypt for example) - most of the west european citizens. Even though things have changed for a while, they are still more afraid and not willing to accept muslims in general. Actually this was a thought of the ambassador of the Czech Republic in Germany some months ago.

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NeroNoah wrote:

About muslims, yes, they can be trouble. A lot of them are not moderate at all. But the right way to do this is education. There are a lot of religious nuts in the world. You have to call them in their bullshit and bend them to your will. And not let them near political power. Political power is worse than any kind of terrorist attack, because it can damage millions of people for many generations, while terrorists can kill at most a few thousand in the west (muslims in particular are better killing muslims).

I oppose fundamental christianism with more fervor because they actually have more power to screw me even if they won't outright kill me (my country has basically jailed most of the far right because they screwed that bad, our "tea party" used fraud and force when they started to lose ground). Be that they induce the next depression, destroy the environment or reduce civil rights. Terrorists can only dream with that.

The only way to confront extremists (without stupid amounts of bloodshed) is to get them out of power, and then educate their base until they become non fundamentalists.

There are two reactions to things like refugees: blind acceptation (on the left mostly) and blind rejection. The proper way to do this is to educate them and integrate them to the west. They could be the key to secularizing middle east in the future. Merely rejecting them is just waiting for the Crusades in some decades. Merely accepting them means having consequences in the future (it will be awful, but let's be fair: they haven't done as much damage even with all the terrorist attacks combined and the poor economic adaptation).

Not taking risks is probably the worse thing the west could do now. This is like Attack on Titan; people can live behind a wall (be real or just isolating themselves for danger) or they can accept the casualties and understand and fight their enemy. They can choose to be cattle or wolves.

I mostly agree with your post here, very thoughtful and on the target.
Now if I can, try calling muslims on their bullshite. I did, here in UK once when a pack of them were walking around Birmingham and calling for sharia law. The thing almost ended up as a fight. I was called rasist, islamophobic piece of whatever you can imagine for saying it doesn't apply to me. That of course doesn't mean all of them are like that. Some adjust and live on among other people just fine.
Problem with political power is they are slowly crawling in there. Once they can set a foot in for example town's council there will be more to follow. And it usually end up in tears as new laws are made like banning xmas trees and such.
Problem with majority of "refugees" is they don't want to be educated and integrated. This is not why they coming in. Majority of them aren't even from Syria but from countries like Afganistan. They want benefits and living off the state. It is enough for people to see how they behave. Seriously, don't think refugees should make demands, attack police forces, rubble and be generally ungrateful. As an immigrant I can say I was (still am) fucking grateful that I was able to get a place to sleep and be offered a job (whatever that job was, some things one have to do to survive).
The consequences of taking in everybody one can see in Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium. But people don't want to look, don't want to act.
So when people say Mr Trump is a radical dumb ass I just say, look at the Europe now. We are getting flooded whether we like it or not. Perhaps, USA to maintain some sort of security really have to take drastic steps.

Schmodderhengst - You mean chancellor that was member of FDJ and was responsible for "Agitation and Propaganda"? Aye good example. She does Germany good. If only these people were true victims of political persecution...You Germans have this stigma on you that unfortunately prevents you from acting in defence of your country. I feel sorry for you, like one of my old friends said (lives in Frankfurt an der Oder) "whenever a guy in Germany opens his mouth to protest there are 5 that are already calling him a nazi. That is enough to shut you up.
You say you got a problem with East of Europe...V4 group is what stands strong in Europe, defending their values, traditions and way of life. We are not afraid muslims, this is pretty stupid things to say. What we are afraid is what happens when you lets them in. You mentioned Sweden, yes it is a very good example of the "let them in, put them on walfare, do nothing about it" policy.
On the side note I am not saying to tell them to fuck off. Fcourse not. I believe anyone that is truly in need should be helped and I would be the first one to held a helping hand. But do tell me, how many countries not affected by war do these "refugees" have to cross to get to Germany? How many countries that are islamic are around them and don't take them in and why not? Those Refuges sound like Economic Immigrants to me and thats not the same thing.

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gathor wrote:

"let them in, put them on welfare, do nothing about it" policy.
On the side note I am not saying to tell them to fuck off. Fcourse not. I believe anyone that is truly in need should be helped and I would be the first one to held a helping hand. But do tell me, how many countries not affected by war do these "refugees" have to cross to get to Germany? How many countries that are islamic are around them and don't take them in and why not? Those Refuges sound like Economic Immigrants to me and thats not the same thing.

You are right here. Immigrants need jobs as soon as possible, also learn about the language and culture as well as the law in their new countries, one more important thing is acceptance within the limits of the order in our society and creating ghettos is not a good idea. It´s hard to tell who is "in need". Who decides that and how can you be sure ?

So Merkel was a member of the FDJ(socialist party youth organization), who wasn´t in "socialist", totalitarian east germany, if you had plans to ever go to a university ?
They (east german totalitarian governments) continued with their own youth like before 1945, they continued with the system, just changed the ideology.

She is a neo-liberal(new word for social darwinism) conservative and I don´t even want to defend her, she has probably some knowledge about agitation and propaganda :-). And she seems to be a big fan of the NSA now. Just because she decides to let refugees in for reasons of humanity and economy (German age structure...) doesn´t make her my friend.

I wish the islamic surrounding countries would take more immigrants, especially the rich countries like Saudi Arabia. You say we are doing something wrong because they act like irresponsible criminals ?

* edit:When I think about it, if I was a secular refugee I wouldn´t want to go to Saudi Arabia, it´s ruled by radicals. So it´s better they give some money to Turkey or Jordan and other secular countries to support these. *

Countries like Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan have taken a lot of refugees, in the case of Lebanon and Jordan in addition to palestinian refugees. In the Lebanon Syrian refugees make about 20% of the population now, if I´m not mistaken.

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gathor wrote:

I feel sorry for you, like one of my old friends said (lives in Frankfurt an der Oder) "whenever a guy in Germany opens his mouth to protest there are 5 that are already calling him a nazi. That is enough to shut you up.

Not necessarily. I´m not willing to shut up and I don´t call others a nazi easily even when they have a different view.

Be assured there are limits for our tolerance. There should be no place for djihadist extremists here as well. Their ideology seems to be very close to fascism.

Frankfurt an der Oder - Hm, they HAVE the biggest problems with neonazis in the southeast and east of Germany(all the places WITHOUT immigrants from Africa or Arabia - irrational fear. Also most of the turkish immigrants (children and grandchildren)live in the west) so it might be a bit different there, I live near Bremen in the northwest.

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Schmodderhengst wrote:

You are right here. Immigrants need jobs as soon as possible, also learn about the language and culture as well as the law in their new countries, one more important thing is acceptance within the limits of the order in our society and creating ghettos is not a good idea. It´s hard to tell who is "in need". Who decides that and how can you be sure ?

Yes, it is hard to know who is in need and who is not. But that doesn't mean you should take everybody in without a question.

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So Merkel was a member of the FDJ(socialist party youth organization), who wasn´t in "socialist", totalitarian east germany, if you had plans to ever go to a university ?
They (east german totalitarian governments) continued with their own youth like before 1945, they continued with the system, just changed the ideology.

She is a neo-liberal(new word for social darwinism) conservative and I don´t even want to defend her, she has probably some knowledge about agitation and propaganda :-). And she seems to be a big fan of the NSA now. Just because she decides to let refugees in for reasons of humanity and economy (German age structure...) doesn´t make her my friend.

Well I can tell you, she was and is no angel. There is enough info on internet about them. I wouldn't trust her at all and I honestly don't know why people do.

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I wish the islamic surrounding countries would take more immigrants, especially the rich countries like Saudi Arabia. You say we are doing something wrong because they act like irresponsible criminals ?

No mate, you (all the countries involved to be honest) are doing something wrong because you act irresponsibly. All in all, your country well being should be most important to you.

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Not necessarily. I´m not willing to shut up and I don´t call others a nazi easily even when they have a different view.

Be assured there are limits for our tolerance. There should be no place for djihadist extremists here as well. Their ideology seems to be very close to fascism.

You give me hope, exile.

Thank you for your responses. Stay strong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sc3_V7Qyq4

The media has really done an impressive job of injecting fear into the american voter since 9/11. Even my own mother truly believes in building walls to keep out foreigners. We have been brainwashed into thinking in terms of 'us' and 'them'. Whenever an individual does anything wrong every group they belong to becomes subliminally persecuated in the media, be it their race/ religion/ nationality/ class or whatever. My own brother believes Islam is based on hate and thinks that 'they' all want to kill 'us', even though he has never talked to a muslim in his life.

What i see is a deterministic consequence of input. The media is saturated with negativity; fear and doom. And the ignorant populace take these messages, proccesses it, and most everyone arrives at the same conclusion on a deep level: 'they' are a problem that needs to be solved. I cant say for certain that the media is doing it deliberately, but i am fairly confident that the media is the source of the hate.

I blame myself for not having the linguistic skills needed to show the people i care about the deeper truth. When i try to explain what i see they look at me as if i am crazy. And it is so frustrating I am such a failure.

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SkyCore wrote:

My own brother believes Islam is based on hate and thinks that 'they' all want to kill 'us', even though he has never talked to a muslim in his life.

..because he has never talked to a muslim in his life.

good youtube link.

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SkyCore wrote:

i am fairly confident that the media is the source of the hate.

I think, it´s rich people, politicians or certain lobbies (think NRA) with money=influence on the media. I´ve mentioned Putin, Murdoch and Berlusconi before alongside with Trump. Journalism should be independent.

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Schmodderhengst wrote:

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SkyCore wrote:

My own brother believes Islam is based on hate and thinks that 'they' all want to kill 'us', even though he has never talked to a muslim in his life.

..because he has never talked to a muslim in his life.

Well, they don't want to kill us (mostly, if you are christian you should be safe except on the most authoritarian holes, if you are not you'll probably be exposed to a lot of crap), but they surely have discriminative practices that are more of a real problem (or so I read researching how the laws change depending on belief). There is a lot to change. The same applies to fundamentalist christianism, with the added challenge that a lot of them are in power, making changes in education truly hard (think of sexual and science education). It will be a grind for the latter, while the refugee situation is a lot more easy from that perspective.

Here is an article about education for refugees that gives an idea of how I would tackle the problem if I had to do it: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=0

Good article, that´s how it has to be done to make integration work. I think our society is not as perfect as the Scandinavians, I have to admit.

Adjustments always seem to happen faster there.

* Edit: in the case of Norway it might also have to do with the right wing islamophobic attacks some years ago in Oslo and Utoya by the extremist Anders Breivik. I was driving through Sweden visiting friends in Lapland/Finland when it happened. If you take their(neonazis/ultra right wing) fears into account without their "solutions" you solve two problems. *

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik


Not all immigrants need that, of course, and many times the reason for problems is not religion, but local tradition. E.g. not too long ago, a turkish couple (living in Germany) murdered their daughter because she had sex before marriage, this is not according to religion and also - of course - not according to turkish law, but it was a local archaic tradition, they felt "dishonored".

That´s an extreme exception here. Of course these parents were convicted for 15 years each, it was on every TV station.

There are some cases of forced marriage as well though, this is known and cannot be allowed.

Being aware of that, I wouldn´t say it´s a major problem for our society.

About maybe 60 years ago it was almost impossible that a german protestant married a german catholic(my grandmother is such an extreme catholic), now only a handful of radical religious would care and use force on their children. Things change in time and over generations.

"[...]A course manual sets out a simple rule that all asylum seekers need to learn and follow: “To force someone into sex is not permitted in Norway, even when you are married to that person.[...]”

That(raping your wife) was not a crime in Germany until 1997, believe it. That´s not long ago, of course it was a topic much earlier. They should make a manual for our neonazis that says: "You don´t burn houses, where people live in " /sarcasm. That happened 6 times in 2014, but so far more than 70 times in this year.

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Schmodderhengst wrote:

That(raping your wife) was not a crime in Germany until 1997, believe it. That´s not long ago, of course it was a topic much earlier. They should make a manual for our neonazis that says: "You don´t burn houses, where people live in " /sarcasm. That happened 6 times in 2014, but so far more than 70 times in this year.

Well, maybe that manual is needed. Or in general, education. You'd be surprised of how much knowledge we take for granted is learned. Even the don't do unnecesary harm thing. Be the poor because they haven't had the chance, or the middle/upper classes when they live in a bubble where the other is a lesser thing.

Hatred and ignorance are fairly good at self perpetrating.