Anti-Melee Challenge Leagues and melee discrimination

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DalaiLama wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Since melee is a deliberate weakness added to a skill to make its gameplay more interesting, melee skills simply cannot compete in an environment where skills without weaknesses define the power curve. So the "melee discrimination" has been a part of PoE since it was little more than ideas bouncing around in Chris Wilson's head, and I really don't see the challenge leagues as being particularly relevant to the issue, at best changing nothing and at worst just hammering in something deeply ingrained into the design.

1. The attack rates for melee could be buffed slightly, and ranged firing/casting rates (including cast on X procs) could be lowered. In contrast, kill-all where the AoE is essentially centered on the player - that is, melee AoE - still involves strategic positioning.

2. Status effects could be adjusted to be more likely and last longer for melee attacks, while reduced for non-melee. Stun with blunt weapons and puncture from melee would be ideal targets.

3. Characters could be given a very short time frame where the character has a slight chance to dodge (spell and attacks) right after a melee attack. I'd put it on the passive tree rather than a gem skill.

4. There could also be a series of passive nodes that allow armor to mitigate a percentage of AOE damage, but in turn would mitigate the damage done by spells and any non-melee damage coming from the character as well.

1. You'd be talking about making a ranged attack so slow, and a melee attack so fast, that travel time + melee attack = ranged attack. Which would make playing a ranged character feel horrible. It would be a lot better to have [edit: I wrote "melee" here but meant ranged, definitely ranged] attacks kill less guys per hit and retain a decent rate of fire, than to have it kill all guys in a single hit but have it fire much less often. The former encourages strategic target selection, the second is even more spray-and-pray than we have now, because more pray.

2. No one cares, except perhaps you.

3 and 4. Survivability increases, not clearspeed increases. In general, survivability increases are a bad idea because the game should retain a fast pace, there should be threats which can kill you if you're not careful, but massive survivability just removes strategic components.

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DalaiLama wrote:

Single target melee skills need attention more than AOE does, imo.

Not really, because there's essentially nothing you could ever do to make such skills appealing. For the most part, single-target melee which could be attractive is actually some form of multitarget in disguise, some of them surprisingly complex (for example, Dominating Blow creates a minion, which then goes on to hit things other than the thing you originally hit with Dominating Blow, hence it is a multitarget skill), or make it a ranged skill in disguise. About the only thing you could do to a single-target melee skill to make it appealing is give it the most outrageous DPS, but that trick works just about once, as there is so little design space within single-target melee that only the highest DPS of such skills would actually be used.

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DalaiLama wrote:

The attack rates for melee could be buffed slightly, and ranged firing/casting rates (including cast on X procs) could be lowered.

Damage should be stronger for melee skills, its for sure. Maybe GGG need to make limit hits per second, or something. I don't know what's better, so just saying ideas.

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DalaiLama wrote:

Status effects could be adjusted to be more likely and last longer for melee attacks, while reduced for non-melee. Stun with blunt weapons and puncture from melee would be ideal targets.

Yes, right now Status effects ONLY viable for crits weapon (bow,claw,dagger,staff,etc) and spells (CoC,etc). It is not right, pretty bad designer and seems not right. RT and small crit chance cannot have it, very bad for game and build variation.

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DalaiLama wrote:

Characters could be given a very short time frame where the character has a slight chance to dodge (spell and attacks) right after a melee attack. I'd put it on the passive tree rather than a gem skill.

Yes, right. I think so, and add old nodes that gave +x-xx% to maximum all resists but you can deal damage only with melee skills or something like that.
Plus more defense and life node in Marauder and Duelist area with buffed life leech node.

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DalaiLama wrote:

There could also be a series of passive nodes that allow armor to mitigate a percentage of AOE damage, but in turn would mitigate the damage done by spells and any non-melee damage coming from the character as well.

Sure, also very good idea. It will make armour better and useful. Must be great to see in new tree, with better balance around RT, Mara, Duelist area.

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Should add that crits should be caped or reworked, just take a look on CoC, Mjolner, Rangers (most of them), pseudo melee crit builds, etc they are just too good and super strong, much more stronger then low life non crit. Better clear speed, good AOE, very good damage vs single target and more, while melee RT have very bad position and just leaved to be in trash bin forever.

I don't think GGG do something good to melee RT in 2.1.0 patch, but i want to believe in miracle that someone from devs will read it and improve melee RT in last day before release. We should believe in miracle... that's all we left, because GGG seems don't even care about melee.

Edited a critical error in my post just before this one.

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Damage should be stronger for melee skills, its for sure. Maybe GGG need to make limit hits per second, or something. I don't know what's better, so just saying ideas.

Limiting the amount of hits hurts ele builds that stack flat damage, in addition adding artificial caps in names of balance is not good. Poe started as a game that people can do pretty much anything they imagine, now plenty of gems have restrictions that aren't obvious.

Melee already has advantages people just compare apples to oranges and expect them to be the same fruit, they really are different.

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Yes, right now Status effects ONLY viable for crits weapon (bow,claw,dagger,staff,etc) and spells (CoC,etc). It is not right, pretty bad designer and seems not right. RT and small crit chance cannot have it, very bad for game and build variation.

Melee builds can benefit from bleed significantly and if they play in a party setting or utilize AA properly can benefit from multipliers like hypothermia. Plus there is chance to bleed on uniques and a little in the tree, personally I'd like some more bleed options inbetween the duelist and the marauder areas, as it seems fitting.

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Yes, right. I think so, and add old nodes that gave +x-xx% to maximum all resists but you can deal damage only with melee skills or something like that.
Plus more defense and life node in Marauder and Duelist area with buffed life leech node.

Again with the artificial limitations, GGG tried the whole max res thing and it wasn't good to have that much on the tree in one spot. You want to prevent damage except melee skills, but what is going to stop the summoners from using it, you typically don't do damage as a summoner you apply EE and let the minions do the damage, again always a caveat to look for and its already been suggested and turned down before.

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Sure, also very good idea. It will make armour better and useful. Must be great to see in new tree, with better balance around RT, Mara, Duelist area.

But it isn't necessary and encourages a "give no fuck" playstyle. Yes melee is more dangerous but melee is manly and manly isn't that if you just take less damage from literally everything.

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Should add that crits should be caped or reworked, just take a look on CoC, Mjolner, Rangers (most of them), pseudo melee crit builds, etc they are just too good and super strong, much more stronger then low life non crit. Better clear speed, good AOE, very good damage vs single target and more, while melee RT have very bad position and just leaved to be in trash bin forever.

Melee is in the best spot its ever been since before 1.0. Its not in the trash bin the cycloners and ice crashers would argue with you all day about it. Some melee splash improvements are already in the works a fix to various gems like IB, dominating blow (believe a bloodlines bug) and other gems will usher a new age in melee playstyles. Fortify is on the right track, just not done the best way IMO.

Again you have an obsession with restricting what other people do. THIS DOESN'T ALIGN WITH THE DESIGN OF POE. They have nerfed crit multi over and over again, its clear they want the chance to be as high as it is and the multi to be less. These builds you deem are too strong aren't, you clearly haven't looked at what it takes to complete such a build and just copy catting what "everyone" else says. Come up with something original as we've heard it time and time again.

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I don't think GGG do something good to melee RT in 2.1.0 patch, but i want to believe in miracle that someone from devs will read it and improve melee RT in last day before release. We should believe in miracle... that's all we left, because GGG seems don't even care about melee.

You clearly don't play melee, its really in an amazing spot, especially if you like cyclone\ice crash, the others will improve with the melee splash buff and other adjustments, but your claim that melee is "trash tier" is far from the truth. The first level 100 in tempest I believe was melee. The top of the ladder was likely dominated by at least a large portion of melee characters.

you realise theres actually nothing wrong with melee, its ridiculously strong right now, one of the strongest things u can possibly do with high clear speed, high damage and high survivability, and that this is a troll thread posted by a troll right? All you people debating in here realise this entire premise is bullshit and youre talking nonsense in a completely nonsense thread that even the op doesnt really believe and is just posting for the sake of posting something ridiculous?


k, just making sure you all are aware of what you are actually doing in here.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

you realise theres actually nothing wrong with melee, its ridiculously strong right now, one of the strongest things u can possibly do with high clear speed, high damage and high survivability, and that this is a troll thread posted by a troll right? All you people debating in here realise this entire premise is bullshit and youre talking nonsense in a completely nonsense thread that even the op doesnt really believe and is just posting for the sake of posting something ridiculous?


k, just making sure you all are aware of what you are actually doing in here.

No I don't.

Go make a Dual Strike, Double Strike or Infernal Blow and compare it to a simple split arrow build, I am pretty sure it is not "the strongest thing". Especially you'd be missing out 33% of your damage when misclicking, chunks of damage reduced by Melee Splash.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Should add that crits should be caped or reworked, just take a look on CoC, Mjolner, Rangers (most of them), pseudo melee crit builds, etc they are just too good and super strong, much more stronger then low life non crit. Better clear speed, good AOE, very good damage vs single target and more, while melee RT have very bad position and just leaved to be in trash bin forever.

Melee is in the best spot its ever been since before 1.0. Its not in the trash bin the cycloners and ice crashers would argue with you all day about it.

Add my groundslammer to the list... it's fucking ridiculous. Juping around, fortify, full end&fre-charges all day, high armour, high life, only dps auras, sustain with mana, permastuns everything... 100%hc viable... maybe not so much in sc tho.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

you realise theres actually nothing wrong with melee, its ridiculously strong right now

Agree.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

and that this is a troll thread posted by a troll right?

It's a StrongWitchCraft thread, of couse it's ... entertaining.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

All you people debating in here realise this entire premise is bullshit and youre talking nonsense in a completely nonsense thread that even the op doesnt really believe and is just posting for the sake of posting something ridiculous?

Don't know about the others, but I enjoy such entertaining nonsense :>
And since wispo has stopped posting, BMBI is on probation and kamil1210 more or less stopped posting "facts" ... there is nothing left :C

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lugaluga wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

you realise theres actually nothing wrong with melee, its ridiculously strong right now

No I don't.

Go make a Dual Strike, Double Strike or Infernal Blow and compare it to a simple split arrow build, I am pretty sure it is not "the strongest thing". Especially you'd be missing out 33% of your damage when misclicking, chunks of damage reduced by Melee Splash.

If you cherrypick... try a barrage build, or burning arrow, or... and compare it to cyclone.

Since i am not playing since early june 2014, i cannot comment of how strong melee is or isn't first hand, but personally, i do not think is all that strong by watching my cousin play. He uses legacy BoR, legacy soul taker, legacy Aegis aurora, legacy rainbowstride corrupted with extra frenzy, stone of lawzar corrupted with extra frenzy, and the rest are pretty good rares. He has almost maxed chancce to block attacks, >50 chance to block spells, 10K armour, 40K frenzy DPS with splash, decent leech, fortify, 4 endurance charges, 4.5k HP and 1K ES. Well he pretty much gets destroyed by end game bosses. Sure his HP could have been higher, but his gear/stats are quite good. From what i've seen, top melee builds use tons of mitigation and abuse the mechanics of the headhunter belt. I dunno how good melee can be outside these mechanics.

WHat i was saying while i was playing, is in order to achieve balance between ranged and melee, one of them has to have better survivability, and the other should have clear speed. The problem that arises, is that given the overall damage and clear speed that bow builds can reach, in addition to the fact that they are ranged and are not getting hit, for melee to compete in terms of survivability, it has to be virtually immortal.

And it was during some time. In the end of open beta, and between 1 and 1.1, well built aegis aurora builds were literally AFK immortal in 99.9% of the content. The same could be said(even though it was realised later), for max block/high evasion/dodge builds. However, despite the immortality, most top end players still chose to play high end ranged builds, due to the fact that they were still almost unkillable, and were destoying maps in 5 mins.

What is also clear is that GGG did not like the fact that builds could be almost immortal, so they contineously nerfed block and dodge and introdued monsters that were hitting like tracks. So maybe(if there is still a problem of course, and i do not really know), is for GGG to try the other way around. For melee to have the high clear speed, and ranged the survivability(which it already has it due to the fact that it is ranged, and it can propably be enhanced someways). Just sayin' though. Not something to be taken very seriously.

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kcstar wrote:

If you cherrypick... try a barrage build, or burning arrow, or... and compare it to cyclone.

:D

its always the same. 'Melee is shit' then you point out that theres amazing melee builds and it turns into 'well the shit melee builds are bad compared to the best possible bow builds'. As if thats somehow the same thing or any sort of meaningful observation that needs addressing directly after ggg has announced they are reworking a ton of skills and improving melee splash in the next update.